Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?

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Hmm ...

> On Dec 4, 2019, at 8:03 PM, R Dymond <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
> Great. So we will not expect any innovation from you. That's OK. It took=
 me a while to realize that Extreme Positions don't really do anything exce=
pt reflect on me. Calling things broken doesn't fix it. Waiting for others =
to change means everything is out of my control, and that is handy if I wan=
t to criticize, and it absolves me of any responsibility. These days I pref=
er to act, to have empathy, to recognize that people have succeeded without=
 many of the ideas we advocate. So we are not "right," we have a different =
approach that we think is better. Our CUSTOMERS by in large do not agree th=
at it is better.


Hm. Heartfelt if not observably empathetic. :)

Regarding Scrum itself, I am coming to believe that its users (cf customer=
s), by and large, probably do not agree that it is better, or, at best, mig=
ht agree that it's better in some ways and [much] worse in others. I've poi=
nted out to Howard that the Scrum Alliance doesn't know the answer to this =
question, and that they really should.

The issues with Scrum, from which we would need to learn, are probably mor=
e complex than I can write or even understand, but there are some component=
s to consider:

The initial dose needs to be followed by continuous learning, from the beg=
inning.
It would be desirable not to be able to just say "we're doing Scrum". Migh=
t be impossible.
Certification without substance is very dangerous as well as powerful.
Sale of developer-focused learning is quite difficult:
Takes much more time;
Costs more;
Companies often spend less, not more, on dev training.

There are new things to learn as well, not least that we probably have to =
sell these ideas to developers, not so much to managers and executives. Man=
agers and executives are important here, but we have to reach the developer=
s. This will require a different kind of outreach than has worked for Scrum=
 and many other management ideas.=20

I don't think it'll be easy: in fact, presently I find the challenge very =
daunting, because the only approach I see requires vision, lots of communit=
y building, much energy, and money, a combination that is in short supply.=
=20

My present concern is that the views expressed here by James Holmes, are p=
retty solidly entrenched in the developer community. I think those views ar=
e a bit mistaken, but they are consistent with the general developer outloo=
k and approach to things. To the extent that James' thoughts here expressed=
 a common strongly held view -- and I think they do -- it is quite possible=
 that the Scrum Alliance, maybe even the Agile Alliance, cannot successfull=
y "market" these ideas to developers.

That was the point of Chet's and my talk at, what, deliver:Agile a couple =
of years ago, "Abandon Agile", also described here. <https://ronjeffries.co=
m/articles/018-01ff/abandon-1/> We may need to literally form a new "anti-A=
gile" community to support these ideas, abandoning the word "Agile" to the =
many ways it has been watered down and perverted.

Naturally, I'd prefer, and we should prefer, to build on what is already t=
here, rather than create what would appear to be a counter-movement. I'm ho=
ping, but less and less unless I can get some active assistance, to get the=
 Scrum Alliance's help with this.

I want to underline a key point from above: it may be true that Scrum's cu=
stomers like Scrum. I believe that by and large, Scrum's users quite often =
do not. This is a problem ... and an opportunity.

Ron Jeffries
ronjeffries.com <http://ronjeffries.com/>
Perfectionism is the voice of the oppressor -- Anne Lamott


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=
=
=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mod=
e: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hmm ...<br class=3D"">=
<div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On=
 Dec 4, 2019, at 8:03 PM, R Dymond &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]=
t" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-in=
terchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0)=
; font-family: ArialMT; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-c=
aps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start=
; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing=
: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Great. So we will not expect any in=
novation from you. That's OK. It took me a while to realize that Extreme Po=
sitions don't really do anything except reflect on me. Calling things broke=
n doesn't fix it. Waiting for others to change means everything is out of m=
y control, and that is handy if I want to criticize, and it absolves me of =
any responsibility. These days I prefer to act, to have empathy, to recogni=
ze that people have succeeded without many of the ideas we advocate. So we =
are not "right," we have a different approach that we think is better. Our =
CUSTOMERS by in large do not agree that it is better.</span></div></blockqu=
ote></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Hm. Heartfelt if not observa=
bly empathetic. :)<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Rega=
rding Scrum itself, I am coming to believe that its users (cf customers), b=
y and large, probably do not agree that it is better, or, at best, might ag=
ree that it's better in some ways and [much] worse in others. I've pointed =
out to Howard that the Scrum Alliance doesn't know the answer to this quest=
ion, and that they really should.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div=
><div class=3D"">The issues with Scrum, from which we would need to learn, =
are probably more complex than I can write or even understand, but there ar=
e some components to consider:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><d=
iv class=3D""><ol class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">The initial dose nee=
ds to be followed by continuous learning, from the beginning.</li><li class=
=
=3D"">It would be desirable not to be able to just say "we're doing Scrum"=
. Might be impossible.</li><li class=3D"">Certification without substance i=
s very dangerous as well as powerful.</li><li class=3D"">Sale of developer-=
focused learning is quite difficult:</li><ol class=3D""><li class=3D"">Take=
s much more time;</li><li class=3D"">Costs more;</li><li class=3D"">Compani=
es often spend less, not more, on dev training.</li></ol></ol><div class=3D=
""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There are new things to learn as we=
ll, not least that we probably have to sell these ideas to developers, not =
so much to managers and executives. Managers and executives are important h=
ere, but we have to reach the developers. This will require a different kin=
d of outreach than has worked for Scrum and many other management ideas.&nb=
sp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don't think=
 it'll be easy: in fact, presently I find the challenge very daunting, beca=
use the only approach I see requires vision, lots of community building, mu=
ch energy, and money, a combination that is in short supply.&nbsp;</div><di=
v class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My present concern is tha=
t the views expressed here by James Holmes, are pretty solidly entrenched i=
n the developer community. I think those views are a bit mistaken, but they=
 are consistent with the general developer outlook and approach to things. =
To the extent that James' thoughts here expressed a common strongly held vi=
ew -- and I think they do -- it is quite possible that the Scrum Alliance, =
maybe even the Agile Alliance, cannot successfully "market" these ideas to =
developers.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That =
was the point of Chet's and my talk at, what, deliver:Agile a couple of yea=
rs ago, "Abandon Agile", also&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://ronjeffries.com/artic=
les/018-01ff/abandon-1/" class=3D"">described here.</a>&nbsp;We may need to=
 literally form a new "anti-Agile" community to support these ideas, abando=
ning the word "Agile" to the many ways it has been watered down and pervert=
ed.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Naturally, I'=
d prefer, and we should prefer, to build on what is already there, rather t=
han create what would appear to be a counter-movement. I'm hoping, but less=
 and less unless I can get some active assistance, to get the Scrum Allianc=
e's help with this.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D=
"">I want to underline a key point from above: it may be true that Scrum's =
customers like Scrum. I believe that by and large, Scrum's users quite ofte=
n do not. This is a problem ... and an opportunity.</div><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: nor=
mal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-=
wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white=
-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: norm=
al; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: non=
e; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-strok=
e-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); f=
ont-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: =
2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-=
space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px=
; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: afte=
r-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant:=
 normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-alig=
n: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norma=
l; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"=
"><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">Ron Jeffries</div><div style=3D"c=
olor: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-heig=
ht: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-tr=
ansform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-t=
ext-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a href=3D"http://ronjeffries.com" class=
=
=3D"">ronjeffries.com</a></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-=
span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;">Perfectioni=
sm is the voice of the oppressor -- Anne Lamott</span></div></div></div></d=
iv>
</div>
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