Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"R Dymond" <[email protected]> Thu, 5 Dec 2019 08:03:47 -0600
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--000000000000ad44d40598f566ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Interesting Avi! Does anyone know if Kubernetes development was test driven? Robin Dymond, CST Managing Partner, Innovel www.innovel.net www.scrumtraining.com Direct: (804) 239-4329 twitter: @robindymond Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond On Thu, Dec 5, 2019, 7:02 AM Avi Kessner <[email protected]> wrote: > My suggestion was based on the success of CNCF, the existence of the CDF > and the success of CI/CD and the annual report which gauges which companies > are involved with CI/CD. As well as the confusion around the term DevOps. > > Ofcourse, DevSecOps, ChatOps, AIOps, GitOps etc are watering that down a > bit. But CI/CD practices have their own set of successes without the XP > label. We need to get that same sort of benchmarks and stats for the > coding process itself. > > brought to you by the letters A, V, and I > and the number 47 > > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 2:43 PM Ron Jeffries <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Hmm ... >> >> On Dec 4, 2019, at 8:03 PM, R Dymond <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Great. So we will not expect any innovation from you. That's OK. It took >> me a while to realize that Extreme Positions don't really do anything >> except reflect on me. Calling things broken doesn't fix it. Waiting for >> others to change means everything is out of my control, and that is handy >> if I want to criticize, and it absolves me of any responsibility. These >> days I prefer to act, to have empathy, to recognize that people have >> succeeded without many of the ideas we advocate. So we are not "right," we >> have a different approach that we think is better. Our CUSTOMERS by in >> large do not agree that it is better. >> >> >> Hm. Heartfelt if not observably empathetic. :) >> >> Regarding Scrum itself, I am coming to believe that its users (cf >> customers), by and large, probably do not agree that it is better, or, at >> best, might agree that it's better in some ways and [much] worse in others. >> I've pointed out to Howard that the Scrum Alliance doesn't know the answer >> to this question, and that they really should. >> >> The issues with Scrum, from which we would need to learn, are probably >> more complex than I can write or even understand, but there are some >> components to consider: >> >> >> 1. The initial dose needs to be followed by continuous learning, from >> the beginning. >> 2. It would be desirable not to be able to just say "we're doing >> Scrum". Might be impossible. >> 3. Certification without substance is very dangerous as well as >> powerful. >> 4. Sale of developer-focused learning is quite difficult: >> 1. Takes much more time; >> 2. Costs more; >> 3. Companies often spend less, not more, on dev training. >> >> >> There are new things to learn as well, not least that we probably have to >> sell these ideas to developers, not so much to managers and executives. >> Managers and executives are important here, but we have to reach the >> developers. This will require a different kind of outreach than has worked >> for Scrum and many other management ideas. >> >> I don't think it'll be easy: in fact, presently I find the challenge very >> daunting, because the only approach I see requires vision, lots of >> community building, much energy, and money, a combination that is in short >> supply. >> >> My present concern is that the views expressed here by James Holmes, are >> pretty solidly entrenched in the developer community. I think those views >> are a bit mistaken, but they are consistent with the general developer >> outlook and approach to things. To the extent that James' thoughts here >> expressed a common strongly held view -- and I think they do -- it is quite >> possible that the Scrum Alliance, maybe even the Agile Alliance, cannot >> successfully "market" these ideas to developers. >> >> That was the point of Chet's and my talk at, what, deliver:Agile a couple >> of years ago, "Abandon Agile", also described here. >> <https://ronjeffries.com/articles/018-01ff/abandon-1/> We may need to >> literally form a new "anti-Agile" community to support these ideas, >> abandoning the word "Agile" to the many ways it has been watered down and >> perverted. >> >> Naturally, I'd prefer, and we should prefer, to build on what is already >> there, rather than create what would appear to be a counter-movement. I'm >> hoping, but less and less unless I can get some active assistance, to get >> the Scrum Alliance's help with this. >> >> I want to underline a key point from above: it may be true that Scrum's >> customers like Scrum. I believe that by and large, Scrum's users quite >> often do not. This is a problem ... and an opportunity. >> >> Ron Jeffries >> ronjeffries.com >> Perfectionism is the voice of the oppressor -- Anne Lamott >> >> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#160426): https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/message/160426 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- --000000000000ad44d40598f566ff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto">Interesting Avi!<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a= uto">Does anyone know if Kubernetes development was test driven?<br><br><di= v data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"auto">Robin Dymond, CST<br>Mana= ging Partner, Innovel<br><a href=3D"http://www.innovel.net">www.innovel.net= </a><br><a href=3D"http://www.scrumtraining.com">www.scrumtraining.com</a><= br>Direct: (804) 239-4329<br>twitter: @robindymond<br>Linkedin:=C2=A0<a hre= f=3D"https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond">https://www.linkedin.com/in/r= obindymond</a></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"= ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019, 7:02 AM Avi Kessner <<a h= ref=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></di= v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:= 1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">My suggestion was based o= n the success of=C2=A0 CNCF, the existence of the CDF and the success of CI= /CD and the annual report which gauges which companies are involved with CI= /CD. As well as the confusion around the term DevOps.<br><br>Ofcourse, DevS= ecOps, ChatOps, AIOps, GitOps etc are watering that down a bit.=C2=A0 But C= I/CD practices have their own set of successes without the XP label.=C2=A0 = We need to get that same sort of benchmarks and stats for the coding proces= s itself.<br><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-smartmail=3D"gmai= l_signature">brought to you by the letters A, V, and I<br>and the number 47= </div></div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class= = =3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 2:43 PM Ron Jeffries <<a href=3D= "mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ronj= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo= te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204= );padding-left:1ex"><div>Hmm ...<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div= >On Dec 4, 2019, at 8:03 PM, R Dymond <<a href=3D"mailto:rdymond@innovel= .net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]</a>> wrot= e:</div><br><div><span style=3D"font-family:ArialMT;font-size:18px;font-sty= le:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal= ;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo= rd-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Great. So we= will not expect any innovation from you. That's OK. It took me a while= to realize that Extreme Positions don't really do anything except refl= ect on me. Calling things broken doesn't fix it. Waiting for others to = change means everything is out of my control, and that is handy if I want t= o criticize, and it absolves me of any responsibility. These days I prefer = to act, to have empathy, to recognize that people have succeeded without ma= ny of the ideas we advocate. So we are not "right," we have a dif= ferent approach that we think is better. Our CUSTOMERS by in large do not a= gree that it is better.</span></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div>Hm. H= eartfelt if not observably empathetic. :)<div><br></div><div>Regarding Scru= m itself, I am coming to believe that its users (cf customers), by and larg= e, probably do not agree that it is better, or, at best, might agree that i= t's better in some ways and [much] worse in others. I've pointed ou= t to Howard that the Scrum Alliance doesn't know the answer to this que= stion, and that they really should.</div><div><br></div><div>The issues wit= h Scrum, from which we would need to learn, are probably more complex than = I can write or even understand, but there are some components to consider:<= /div><div><br></div><div><ol><li>The initial dose needs to be followed by c= ontinuous learning, from the beginning.</li><li>It would be desirable not t= o be able to just say "we're doing Scrum". Might be impossibl= e.</li><li>Certification without substance is very dangerous as well as pow= erful.</li><li>Sale of developer-focused learning is quite difficult:</li><= ol><li>Takes much more time;</li><li>Costs more;</li><li>Companies often sp= end less, not more, on dev training.</li></ol></ol><div><br></div><div>Ther= e are new things to learn as well, not least that we probably have to sell = these ideas to developers, not so much to managers and executives. Managers= and executives are important here, but we have to reach the developers. Th= is will require a different kind of outreach than has worked for Scrum and = many other management ideas.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I don't thi= nk it'll be easy: in fact, presently I find the challenge very daunting= , because the only approach I see requires vision, lots of community buildi= ng, much energy, and money, a combination that is in short supply.=C2=A0</d= iv><div><br></div><div>My present concern is that the views expressed here = by James Holmes, are pretty solidly entrenched in the developer community. = I think those views are a bit mistaken, but they are consistent with the ge= neral developer outlook and approach to things. To the extent that James= 9; thoughts here expressed a common strongly held view -- and I think they = do -- it is quite possible that the Scrum Alliance, maybe even the Agile Al= liance, cannot successfully "market" these ideas to developers.</= div><div><br></div><div>That was the point of Chet's and my talk at, wh= at, deliver:Agile a couple of years ago, "Abandon Agile", also=C2= = =A0<a href=3D"https://ronjeffries.com/articles/018-01ff/abandon-1/" target= = =3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">described here.</a>=C2=A0We may need to lit= erally form a new "anti-Agile" community to support these ideas, = abandoning the word "Agile" to the many ways it has been watered = down and perverted.</div><div><br></div><div>Naturally, I'd prefer, and= we should prefer, to build on what is already there, rather than create wh= at would appear to be a counter-movement. I'm hoping, but less and less= unless I can get some active assistance, to get the Scrum Alliance's h= elp with this.</div><div><br></div><div>I want to underline a key point fro= m above: it may be true that Scrum's customers like Scrum. I believe th= at by and large, Scrum's users quite often do not. This is a problem ..= . and an opportunity.</div><div> <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text= -indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div s= tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent= :0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style=3D= "color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:nor= mal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space= :normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant:norma= l;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-ind= ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>Ron Je= ffries</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant:normal;letter-spaci= ng:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-t= ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"http://ronjef= fries.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ronjeffries.com</a></div><d= iv><span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px">Perfectionis= m is the voice of the oppressor -- Anne Lamott</span></div></div></div></di= v> </div> <br></div></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div> </p></p></blockquote></div> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160426">View/Reply Online (#160426)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= = =3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%20y= ou%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DPr= ivate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20fo= r%20you%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/post">New Topic</a><br= > <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/editsub/2417047">Your Su= bscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner<= /a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/= xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --000000000000ad44d40598f566ff--