Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"Avi Kessner" <[email protected]> Thu, 5 Dec 2019 16:06:16 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.extreme-programming |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAGEhWpHV8wbuhJybb=8XipB+5nRzyPbNKZJJDGzRGWj_QMG2ag@mail.gmail.com> |
--0000000000007a09fd0598f56f66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I don't know if it was test-driven or not but I do know they have a heavily automated process with an 800 core cluster running tests on every PR. They have many bots for handling Github, and one of the early release team members actually automated his job away. brought to you by the letters A, V, and I and the number 47 On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 4:04 PM R Dymond <[email protected]> wrote: > Interesting Avi! > > Does anyone know if Kubernetes development was test driven? > > Robin Dymond, CST > Managing Partner, Innovel > www.innovel.net > www.scrumtraining.com > Direct: (804) 239-4329 > twitter: @robindymond > Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019, 7:02 AM Avi Kessner <[email protected]> wrote: > >> My suggestion was based on the success of CNCF, the existence of the CDF >> and the success of CI/CD and the annual report which gauges which companies >> are involved with CI/CD. As well as the confusion around the term DevOps. >> >> Ofcourse, DevSecOps, ChatOps, AIOps, GitOps etc are watering that down a >> bit. But CI/CD practices have their own set of successes without the XP >> label. We need to get that same sort of benchmarks and stats for the >> coding process itself. >> >> brought to you by the letters A, V, and I >> and the number 47 >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 2:43 PM Ron Jeffries <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Hmm ... >>> >>> On Dec 4, 2019, at 8:03 PM, R Dymond <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Great. So we will not expect any innovation from you. That's OK. It took >>> me a while to realize that Extreme Positions don't really do anything >>> except reflect on me. Calling things broken doesn't fix it. Waiting for >>> others to change means everything is out of my control, and that is handy >>> if I want to criticize, and it absolves me of any responsibility. These >>> days I prefer to act, to have empathy, to recognize that people have >>> succeeded without many of the ideas we advocate. So we are not "right," we >>> have a different approach that we think is better. Our CUSTOMERS by in >>> large do not agree that it is better. >>> >>> >>> Hm. Heartfelt if not observably empathetic. :) >>> >>> Regarding Scrum itself, I am coming to believe that its users (cf >>> customers), by and large, probably do not agree that it is better, or, at >>> best, might agree that it's better in some ways and [much] worse in others. >>> I've pointed out to Howard that the Scrum Alliance doesn't know the answer >>> to this question, and that they really should. >>> >>> The issues with Scrum, from which we would need to learn, are probably >>> more complex than I can write or even understand, but there are some >>> components to consider: >>> >>> >>> 1. The initial dose needs to be followed by continuous learning, >>> from the beginning. >>> 2. It would be desirable not to be able to just say "we're doing >>> Scrum". Might be impossible. >>> 3. Certification without substance is very dangerous as well as >>> powerful. >>> 4. Sale of developer-focused learning is quite difficult: >>> 1. Takes much more time; >>> 2. Costs more; >>> 3. Companies often spend less, not more, on dev training. >>> >>> >>> There are new things to learn as well, not least that we probably have >>> to sell these ideas to developers, not so much to managers and executives. >>> Managers and executives are important here, but we have to reach the >>> developers. This will require a different kind of outreach than has worked >>> for Scrum and many other management ideas. >>> >>> I don't think it'll be easy: in fact, presently I find the challenge >>> very daunting, because the only approach I see requires vision, lots of >>> community building, much energy, and money, a combination that is in short >>> supply. >>> >>> My present concern is that the views expressed here by James Holmes, are >>> pretty solidly entrenched in the developer community. I think those views >>> are a bit mistaken, but they are consistent with the general developer >>> outlook and approach to things. To the extent that James' thoughts here >>> expressed a common strongly held view -- and I think they do -- it is quite >>> possible that the Scrum Alliance, maybe even the Agile Alliance, cannot >>> successfully "market" these ideas to developers. >>> >>> That was the point of Chet's and my talk at, what, deliver:Agile a >>> couple of years ago, "Abandon Agile", also described here. >>> <https://ronjeffries.com/articles/018-01ff/abandon-1/> We may need to >>> literally form a new "anti-Agile" community to support these ideas, >>> abandoning the word "Agile" to the many ways it has been watered down and >>> perverted. >>> >>> Naturally, I'd prefer, and we should prefer, to build on what is already >>> there, rather than create what would appear to be a counter-movement. I'm >>> hoping, but less and less unless I can get some active assistance, to get >>> the Scrum Alliance's help with this. >>> >>> I want to underline a key point from above: it may be true that Scrum's >>> customers like Scrum. I believe that by and large, Scrum's users quite >>> often do not. This is a problem ... and an opportunity. >>> >>> Ron Jeffries >>> ronjeffries.com >>> Perfectionism is the voice of the oppressor -- Anne Lamott >>> >>> > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#160427): https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/message/160427 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- --0000000000007a09fd0598f56f66 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">I don't know if it was test-driven or not but I do kno= w they have a heavily automated process with an 800 core cluster running te= sts on every PR.<br>They have many bots for handling Github, and one of the= early release team members actually automated his job away.<br><br clear= =3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D= "gmail_signature">brought to you by the letters A, V, and I<br>and the numb= er 47</div></div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" = class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 4:04 PM R Dymond <<a href=3D= "mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><b= lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le= ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Interesti= ng Avi!<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Does anyone know if Ku= bernetes development was test driven?<br><br><div dir=3D"auto">Robin Dymond= , CST<br>Managing Partner, Innovel<br><a href=3D"http://www.innovel.net" ta= rget=3D"_blank">www.innovel.net</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.scrumtraining.= com" target=3D"_blank">www.scrumtraining.com</a><br>Direct: (804) 239-4329<= br>twitter: @robindymond<br>Linkedin:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.linkedin.= com/in/robindymond" target=3D"_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymo= nd</a></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cla= ss=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019, 7:02 AM Avi Kessner <<a href=3D"m= ailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrot= e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0= .8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l= tr">My suggestion was based on the success of=C2=A0 CNCF, the existence of = the CDF and the success of CI/CD and the annual report which gauges which c= ompanies are involved with CI/CD. As well as the confusion around the term = DevOps.<br><br>Ofcourse, DevSecOps, ChatOps, AIOps, GitOps etc are watering= that down a bit.=C2=A0 But CI/CD practices have their own set of successes= without the XP label.=C2=A0 We need to get that same sort of benchmarks an= d stats for the coding process itself.<br><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir= =3D"ltr">brought to you by the letters A, V, and I<br>and the number 47</d= iv></div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D= "gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 2:43 PM Ron Jeffries <<a href=3D"mai= lto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ronjeffr= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa= dding-left:1ex"><div>Hmm ...<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On = Dec 4, 2019, at 8:03 PM, R Dymond <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= " rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:</= div><br><div><span style=3D"font-family:ArialMT;font-size:18px;font-style:n= ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex= t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= pacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Great. So we wil= l not expect any innovation from you. That's OK. It took me a while to = realize that Extreme Positions don't really do anything except reflect = on me. Calling things broken doesn't fix it. Waiting for others to chan= ge means everything is out of my control, and that is handy if I want to cr= iticize, and it absolves me of any responsibility. These days I prefer to a= ct, to have empathy, to recognize that people have succeeded without many o= f the ideas we advocate. So we are not "right," we have a differe= nt approach that we think is better. Our CUSTOMERS by in large do not agree= that it is better.</span></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div>Hm. Heart= felt if not observably empathetic. :)<div><br></div><div>Regarding Scrum it= self, I am coming to believe that its users (cf customers), by and large, p= robably do not agree that it is better, or, at best, might agree that it= 9;s better in some ways and [much] worse in others. I've pointed out to= Howard that the Scrum Alliance doesn't know the answer to this questio= n, and that they really should.</div><div><br></div><div>The issues with Sc= rum, from which we would need to learn, are probably more complex than I ca= n write or even understand, but there are some components to consider:</div= ><div><br></div><div><ol><li>The initial dose needs to be followed by conti= nuous learning, from the beginning.</li><li>It would be desirable not to be= able to just say "we're doing Scrum". Might be impossible.</= li><li>Certification without substance is very dangerous as well as powerfu= l.</li><li>Sale of developer-focused learning is quite difficult:</li><ol><= li>Takes much more time;</li><li>Costs more;</li><li>Companies often spend = less, not more, on dev training.</li></ol></ol><div><br></div><div>There ar= e new things to learn as well, not least that we probably have to sell thes= e ideas to developers, not so much to managers and executives. Managers and= executives are important here, but we have to reach the developers. This w= ill require a different kind of outreach than has worked for Scrum and many= other management ideas.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I don't think i= t'll be easy: in fact, presently I find the challenge very daunting, be= cause the only approach I see requires vision, lots of community building, = much energy, and money, a combination that is in short supply.=C2=A0</div><= div><br></div><div>My present concern is that the views expressed here by J= ames Holmes, are pretty solidly entrenched in the developer community. I th= ink those views are a bit mistaken, but they are consistent with the genera= l developer outlook and approach to things. To the extent that James' t= houghts here expressed a common strongly held view -- and I think they do -= - it is quite possible that the Scrum Alliance, maybe even the Agile Allian= ce, cannot successfully "market" these ideas to developers.</div>= <div><br></div><div>That was the point of Chet's and my talk at, what, = deliver:Agile a couple of years ago, "Abandon Agile", also=C2=A0<= a href=3D"https://ronjeffries.com/articles/018-01ff/abandon-1/" rel=3D"nore= ferrer" target=3D"_blank">described here.</a>=C2=A0We may need to literally= form a new "anti-Agile" community to support these ideas, abando= ning the word "Agile" to the many ways it has been watered down a= nd perverted.</div><div><br></div><div>Naturally, I'd prefer, and we sh= ould prefer, to build on what is already there, rather than create what wou= ld appear to be a counter-movement. I'm hoping, but less and less unles= s I can get some active assistance, to get the Scrum Alliance's help wi= th this.</div><div><br></div><div>I want to underline a key point from abov= e: it may be true that Scrum's customers like Scrum. I believe that by = and large, Scrum's users quite often do not. This is a problem ... and = an opportunity.</div><div> <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text= -indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div s= tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent= :0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style=3D= "color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:nor= mal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space= :normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant:norma= l;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-ind= ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>Ron Je= ffries</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant:normal;letter-spaci= ng:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-t= ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"http://ronjef= fries.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ronjeffries.com</a></div><d= iv><span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px">Perfectionis= m is the voice of the oppressor -- Anne Lamott</span></div></div></div></di= v> </div> <br></div></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160427">View/Reply Online (#160427)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= = =3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%20y= ou%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DPri= vate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for= %20you%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/post">New Topic</a><br= > <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/editsub/2417047">Your Su= bscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner<= /a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/= xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --0000000000007a09fd0598f56f66--