Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"Steve Gordon" <[email protected]> Thu, 5 Dec 2019 10:01:53 -0700
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.extreme-programming |
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| Message-ID | <CAF7qo6VhofZ0KPSD1P+-6pM9H-KC5Bt3AqTA+mwqQCA-0e8cng@mail.gmail.com> |
--00000000000097f7bb0598f7e398 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is debatable whether the software actually fixed the MAX problem. On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 9:28 AM James Grenning <[email protected]> wrote= : > > Sometimes the hardware spec is wrong and, as you mention, sometimes the > hardware is right sometimes and wrong other times. I think there is a r= ole > for software in the latter. As we will see the MAX problem fixed in > software. > > The opposite happens too. Hardware is changed to address software > problems. > > On Dec 5, 2019 at 10:04 AM, Steve Gordon <[email protected]> wrote: > > Sometimes the hardware is wrong. Then the battle ensues whether or not > the software should compensate for hardware errors. For example, the > 737MAX. > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 7:24 AM James Grenning <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> This happens next to hardware: >> >> 1) test drive to the spec off the target hardware. (getting it almost >> right) >> 2) integrate with the hardware and find the places you got it wrong. >> 3) run the off-target tests to see in your tests what you got wrong >> 4) make the tests match the world >> ------------------------------ >> >> James Grenning - Author of TDD for Embedded C - wingman-sw.com/tddec >> wingman-sw.com >> wingman-sw.com/blog >> twitter.com/jwgrenning >> facebook.com/wingman.sw >> >> On 5 Dec 2019, at 8:45, Steve Gordon wrote: >> >> There are 3 distinct cases in my mind: >> >> 1. Trivial bug - it is obvious what we did wrong and we just correct it= . >> That case might involved fixing a few unit tests, but does not involve = TDD. >> >> 2. What we did was wrong. - Rip out the wrong code and tests and start >> over with the right functional test. This involves redoing the develop= ment >> using TDD, but TDD is no more or less useful that it is for normal >> development. >> >> 3. What we did was right, but we were missing a requirement - formulate= a >> new user story and implement it. This again involves TDD, but still in= the >> ordinary way. >> >> Saying "TDD works great here" implies a non-existent difference with ho= w >> TDD works in normal development. >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:19 AM Ron Jeffries <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> FWIW I [almost] never debug. In most languages I don't even know how t= o >>> run the debugger. Once in a while, rarely, I'll stuff in a print. >>> Generally, I just write a test that fails. >>> >>> On Dec 5, 2019, at 8:11 AM, Phil Goodwin <[email protected]> wrot= e: >>> >>> Right. There's a step zero involving good old fashioned debugging to >>> find the root cause, but then it makes sense to test drive the solutio= n for >>> all the trains it makes sense to TDD in the first place. >>> >>> >>> >>> Ron Jeffries >>> ronjeffries.com >>> Whenever I feel discouraged, I remember the words of my then-3 yr old >>> after she puked carrots on the floor: =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m gonna need = more carrots.=E2=80=9D >>> =E2=80=94 @JessicaValenti >>> >>> >=20 > > -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#160435): https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160435 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/61983806= 5/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- --00000000000097f7bb0598f7e398 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">It is debatable whether the software actually fixed the MA= X problem.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gm= ail_attr">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 9:28 AM James Grenning <<a href=3D"mail= to:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><bloc= kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:= 1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div id=3D"gmail-m_-2038925756= 733538617edo-message"><div><br>Sometimes the hardware spec is wrong and, as= you mention,=C2=A0 sometimes the hardware is right sometimes and wrong oth= er times.=C2=A0 I think there is a role for software in the latter. As we w= ill see the MAX problem fixed in software.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>T= he opposite happens too.=C2=A0 Hardware is changed to address software prob= lems.=C2=A0<br><br><div id=3D"gmail-m_-2038925756733538617edo-signature"></= div></div></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-2038925756733538617edo-original"><div><= blockquote type=3D"cite"><div id=3D"gmail-m_-2038925756733538617edo-meta">O= n Dec 5, 2019 at 10:04 AM, Steve Gordon <<a href=3D"mailto:sgordonphd@gm= ail.com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote: <br><br></di= v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Sometimes the hardware is wrong.=C2=A0 Then the bat= tle ensues whether or not the software should compensate=C2=A0for hardware = errors.=C2=A0 For example, the 737MAX.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">= <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 7:24 AM James = Grenning <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">jame= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa= dding-left:1ex"><u></u> <div> <div style=3D"font-family:sans-serif"><div style=3D"white-space:normal"> <p dir=3D"auto">This happens next to hardware:</p> <p dir=3D"auto">1) test drive to the spec off the target hardware. (gettin= g it almost right)<br> 2) integrate with the hardware and find the places you got it wrong.<br> 3) run the off-target tests to see in your tests what you got wrong<br> 4) make the tests match the world</p> <hr style=3D"background:linear-gradient(to right,rgb(204,204,204),rgb(51,5= 1,51),rgb(204,204,204)) rgb(51,51,51);border:0px;height:1px" height=3D"1"> <p dir=3D"auto">James Grenning - Author of TDD for Embedded C - <a href=3D= "http://wingman-sw.com/tddec" target=3D"_blank">wingman-sw.com/tddec</a><br= > <a href=3D"http://wingman-sw.com" target=3D"_blank">wingman-sw.com</a><br> <a href=3D"http://wingman-sw.com/blog" target=3D"_blank">wingman-sw.com/bl= og</a><br> <a href=3D"http://twitter.com/jwgrenning" target=3D"_blank">twitter.com/jw= grenning</a><br> <a href=3D"http://facebook.com/wingman.sw" target=3D"_blank">facebook.com/= wingman.sw</a></p> <p dir=3D"auto">On 5 Dec 2019, at 8:45, Steve Gordon wrote:</p> </div> <div style=3D"white-space:normal"></div> <blockquote style=3D"border-left:2px solid rgb(119,119,119);color:rgb(119,= 119,119);margin:0px 0px 5px;padding-left:5px"><div id=3D"gmail-m_-203892575= 6733538617gmail-m_-26050392721155908036F194398-672F-4C4E-BF0E-F12441131B0D"= ><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>There are 3 distinct cases in my mind:</div><div><br= ></div><div>1. Trivial bug - it is obvious what we did wrong and we just co= rrect it.=C2=A0 That case might involved fixing a few unit tests, but does = not involve TDD.</div><div><br></div><div>2. What we did was wrong. - Rip o= ut the wrong code and tests and start over with the right functional test.= =C2=A0 This involves redoing the development using TDD, but TDD is no more= or less useful that it is for normal development.</div><div><br></div><div= >3. What we did was right, but we were missing a requirement - formulate a = new user story and implement it.=C2=A0 This again involves TDD, but still i= n the ordinary way.</div><div><br></div><div>Saying "TDD works great h= ere" implies a non-existent difference with how TDD works in normal de= velopment.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:19 AM Ron Jef= fries <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">ron= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu= ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20= 4);padding-left:1ex"><div>FWIW I [almost] never debug. In most languages I = don't even know how to run the debugger. Once in a while, rarely, I'= ;ll stuff in a print. Generally, I just write a test that fails.<br><div><b= r><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Dec 5, 2019, at 8:11 AM, Phil Goodwin &= lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">phil.goodwin= @gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><span style=3D"font-family:ArialMT;= font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:norma= l;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non= e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;displ= ay:inline">Right. There's a step zero involving good old fashioned debu= gging to find the root cause, but then it makes sense to test drive the sol= ution for all the trains it makes sense to TDD in the first place.</span></= div></blockquote></div><br><div> <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text= -indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div s= tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;font-style:normal= ;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-ali= gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin= g:0px"></div><br>Ron Jeffries<br><a href=3D"http://ronjeffries.com" target= =3D"_blank">ronjeffries.com</a><br>Whenever I feel discouraged, I=C2=A0rem= ember the words of my=C2=A0then-3 yr old after she puked=C2=A0carrots on th= e floor: =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m gonna=C2=A0need more carrots.=E2=80=9D<br>=E2= = =80=94 @JessicaValenti</div> </div> <br></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div> </div></blockquote> <div style=3D"white-space:normal"> <blockquote style=3D"border-left:2px solid rgb(119,119,119);color:rgb(119,= 119,119);margin:0px 0px 5px;padding-left:5px"> </blockquote></div> <div style=3D"white-space:normal"> </div> </div> </div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div></div> <br></blockquote></div></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160435">View/Reply Online (#160435)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= = =3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%20y= ou%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DP= rivate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20f= or%20you%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/post">New Topic</a><br= > <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/editsub/2417047">Your Su= bscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner<= /a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/= xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --00000000000097f7bb0598f7e398--