Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"Phil Goodwin" <[email protected]> Thu, 5 Dec 2019 09:12:05 -0800
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.extreme-programming |
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--0000000000007dceea0598f8092f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Right. I work at Pivotal where we have a consulting arm that teaches XP and an R&D organization that employs it. What I've seen is that there are good reasons to step away from the disciplines -- pairing isn't great for learning a new technology from scratch or doing certain tedious tasks (though it's good for those that are so tedious that attention might stray); TDD doesn't work well for some kinds of integration work that requires a lot of exploration; continuous integration is impractical when test suites take a long time to run -- and that organizations and the individuals that comprise them want to step away from those disciplines for the wrong reasons, mostly having to do with ego, easy gratification, and fear. Disciplines always don't work without character to run them, and that's something that has to be remade over and over again. On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:53 AM Eb Alson <[email protected]> wrote: > I believe XP (at the start) requires a level of discipline and rigor that > many folks are not willing to commit to because they can create software > without the discipline and rigor. > > Something about human nature. :-) > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 12:58 AM R Dymond <[email protected]> wrote: > >> My first Agile project was in 2002, so not 20 years, however that first >> project we started with TDD, CC.net and monthly releases. >> >> Since that time I have seen XP go from early adopter "awesome" to >> neglected stepchild of Scrum, to somewhat mysterious/intriguing ghost of >> development gurus past. >> >> Reading Kent's posts from facebookland or some of the senior google alum >> I follow (ie Jeff Nelson chromebook inventor), it seems among these non XP >> practicing smart engineers Agile developer skills aren't considered >> necessary or required. That to me is sad though not unexpected. Developers >> have as much difficulty changing their habits as anyone else. Besides, >> we're too busy. >> >> At a recent client that has success adopting Agile in their hardware >> manufacturing group, their software group remains a flailing mess, the >> current S/W project running millions over budget (waterfall) and the CTO >> recently fired for it. That CTO connected me with that S/W group before the >> sh*t show got rolling but they declined my services. >> >> That same fired CTO sponsored agile in 5 pilots, all hardware, and all >> delivering. In those pilots we emphasize less welding and more (overbuilt) >> interfaces (mostly ignored because if cost) more modularity, more >> standardization, and TDD thinking, which translates into hypothesis to test >> rig and interface, then design to pass. These are not quite unit tests, but >> somewhere between unit and functional tests. Selling these ideas in >> mechanical engineering teams today is like selling OO in the 90s. Some get >> it and love it, others don't care, and most are sorta neutral. >> >> By decoupling and enabling reuse we decrease the amount of engineering >> labour required to build new H/W systems. Many engineers do not think this >> is a good idea, since they're paid for every hour of engineering required >> ("and we're going to engineer the sh*t outa this thing"). Similarly, sales >> of standardized parts generate less profit then sales of specialized >> parts. Case in point, try to mount wheels for a bmw on a similar sized >> sedan from another manufacturer. There are dozens bolt patterns to hold a >> wheel on a car, the reason for so many has to do with profit, not passing >> the test of holding a wheel on. >> >> Being in the Scrum camp more than XP, in every CSM I overview in detail >> TDD, CI, Pairing, Mobbing and Swarming. Also explain that you have to look >> at XP, not Scrum for great ideas on how to make great quality software. >> >> I am at a loss on how to sell these ideas though. At a client who I >> started working with Scrum in 2010 I have trained most the staff on Scrum. >> They have over 1000 developers. We sold a total of 2 XP/TDD immersion >> courses with a well known XP Coach after strenuous internal marketing >> from HR and finally a Dev Sr Mgr assigning people to the classes. This same >> company spends millions per year on dev training and regularly sell out >> courses on Swift, C++, python, r, react, vmware, AWS, Azure, tensorflow >> etc. etc. Budget isn't the issue, demand for XP practices training is the >> struggle. >> >> So in 20 years we still do not have the business case we need to convince >> developers to widely adopt and spread these ideas. >> >> To end on a more positive note, tool support has never been better! >> >> Cheers Robin. >> >> Robin Dymond, CST >> Managing Partner, Innovel >> www.innovel.net >> www.scrumtraining.com >> Direct: (804) 239-4329 >> twitter: @robindymond >> Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond >> >> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019, 12:42 PM Slava Imeshev via Groups.Io <imeshev= >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> George, thank you for raising the discussion to the top level. >>> >>> Things that have changed for me over the past 20 years: >>> 1. XP as a practice has been forgotten and many parts of it have fallen >>> out of use. >>> >>> 2. I find myself continuously reinstalling [XP and Agile] best practices >>> at the jobs I'm taking on. Continuous Integration, unit testing, >>> refactoring, iterative development... >>> >>> 3. Teams are practicing either 'run as fast as you can' SDLC which is >>> essentially a no-practice, or full blown waterfall, as in >>> 'let's-plan-a-year-out' with all consequences. >>> >>> 4. Raise of the 'Product Manager' job which is a strange combo of a >>> member of sales organization and a surrogate user. Engineers no longer can >>> talk to users. >>> >>> 5. Use cases is not a thing anymore. Use cases were replaced with user >>> stories that are short blurbs leading to ambiguity in implementation and >>> testing and last moment changes in requirements. >>> >>> 6. Large scale projects. SW organizations can easily be in hundreds of >>> people that ends up in a zoo of way of doing things unless top leadership >>> pushes a particular approach down. >>> >>> 7. Code reviews now must which is great. >>> >>> All in all, I feel that new entrants into the software development job >>> are not educated in the engineering part of it. As a result the SDLC is >>> largely defined by idiosyncrasies of the engineering leaders. Or teams >>> self-organize and end up with no-process. >>> >>> Slava >>> >>> On Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 9:51:18 AM PST, George Paci < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> (This thread was buried in another thread; I'm trying to transplant it >>> to the top level so it gets more exposure.) >>> >>> Things that have changed for me over the past 20 years: >>> >>> 1) Nobody says "XP" or "Extreme Programming" anymore, even when they're >>> doing many of the practices. >>> >>> 2) Developers didn't test 20 years ago. Now unit test suites are >>> ubiquitous, and many of them are well-maintained. >>> >>> 3) Everybody's talking about User Stories, which were weird 20 years >>> ago. Unfortunately, the tools have taken over the meaning, and I need to >>> chant, "The card is a token for an ongoing conversation" over and over. >>> Sometimes it gets through. >>> >>> 4) I no longer focus on the practices when I spread them; I just start >>> using them when I pair with someone, and they catch on (or don't). Maybe I >>> should have specific sessions where I focus on, say, refactoring, or TDD. >>> >>> There's probably more I've forgotten. 1999 was a long time ago. >>> >>> --George >>> >>> A lot of people mistake a short memory for a clear conscience. >>> - Doug Larson >>> Subject: Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the >>> past 20 years? >>> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:39:12 -0700 >>> From: Jay Bazuzi <[email protected]> <[email protected]> >>> Reply-To: [email protected] >>> To: [email protected] >>> >>> From Arlo I heard a story that Corey Haines would experiment with doing >>> a project without one of the practices that he normally relied on for >>> success. He found that his defect rate was steadily decreasing over time, >>> project to project, but when he skipped TDD his defect remained the same >>> (he wasn't learning) and when he skipped Refactoring his defect rate went >>> up (quality depends on design more than on tests). >>> >>> That seems to match your experience, JB. >>> >>> -J >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 7:38 AM J. B. Rainsberger <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 3:16 PM Ken Auer <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks, JB, >>> >>> I was surprised. Let's see what happens. The timing is interesting as >>> I was just recently prompted to dig out some old articles/papers I've >>> written and have some reflective time to publish updates... what is >>> timeless since the early 2000s and what has evolved (at least for me). >>> >>> >>> This leads to a wider discussion regarding what has changed for you as >>> an XP enthusiast and practitioner over the years. I'd like to keep the >>> question wide open, so don't hold back. >>> >>> I recently experimented with evolutionary design without tests and I >>> found it enjoyable and illuminating. >>> >>> I worked with a group of 3 people. They wanted to practise microsteps >>> and to see a design evolve. For 3 hours, I drove while they typed. They >>> practised the microsteps inside their IDE (elementary refactorings, >>> keystrokes) and we went through 2 features of one of my teaching examples, >>> "test"-driven (meaning that we wrote and ran the tests in our heads). It >>> worked surprisingly well! They got to see some simple design evolve (albeit >>> with no pressure from tests) and that made them happy. They could more >>> clearly _see_ the power of evolutionary design, related to being able to >>> defer commitment and change directions as needs change. We also just went >>> more quickly than we would have had we written the tests. >>> >>> Of course, I told them that if we got into trouble, then we'd start >>> writing tests. Fortunately, we didn't get into trouble in just 3 hours. :) >>> >>> So it turns out that after a decade or two of practise, one can live >>> without the tests a surprising amount---at least in some contexts. >>> -- >>> J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: https://tdd.training :: http://www.jbrains.ca >>> :: http://www.thecodewhisperer.com >>> >>> > > -- > blog: http://eikonne.wordpress.com > LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne > twitter: @eikonne > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#160436): https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/message/160436 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- --0000000000007dceea0598f8092f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Right. I work at Pivotal where we have a consulting arm th= at teaches XP and an R&D organization that employs it. What I've se= en is that there are good reasons to step away from the disciplines -- pair= ing isn't great for learning a new technology from scratch or doing cer= tain tedious tasks (though it's good for those that are so tedious that= attention might stray); TDD doesn't work well for some kinds of integr= ation work that requires a lot of exploration; continuous integration is im= practical when test suites take a long time to run -- and that organization= s and the individuals that comprise them want to step away from those disci= plines for the wrong reasons, mostly having to do with ego, easy gratificat= ion, and fear. Disciplines always don't work without character to run t= hem, and that's something that has to be remade over and over again.<br= ></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"= >On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:53 AM Eb Alson <<a href=3D"mailto:amaeze@gmail= .com">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q= uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2= 04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I believe=C2=A0XP (at the start= ) requires a level of discipline and rigor that many folks are not willing = to commit=C2=A0to because they=C2=A0can create software without the discipl= ine and rigor.</div><div><br></div><div>Something about human nature. :-)</= div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On= Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 12:58 AM R Dymond <<a href=3D"mailto:rdymond@innove= l.net" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><block= quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1= px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">My first Agil= e project was in 2002, so not 20 years, however that first project we start= ed with TDD, CC.net and monthly releases.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div d= ir=3D"auto">Since that time I have seen XP go from early adopter "awes= ome" to neglected stepchild of Scrum, to somewhat mysterious/intriguin= g ghost of development gurus past.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di= r=3D"auto">Reading Kent's posts from facebookland or some of the senior= google alum I follow (ie Jeff Nelson chromebook inventor), it seems among = these non XP practicing smart engineers Agile developer skills aren't c= onsidered necessary or required. That to me is sad though not unexpected. D= evelopers have as much difficulty changing their habits as anyone else. Bes= ides, we're too busy.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto= ">At a recent client that has success adopting Agile in their hardware manu= facturing group, their software group remains a flailing mess, the current = S/W project running millions over budget (waterfall) and the CTO recently f= ired for it. That CTO connected me with that S/W group before the sh*t show= got rolling but they declined my services.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b= r></div><div dir=3D"auto">That same fired CTO sponsored agile in 5 pilots, = all hardware, and all delivering. In those pilots we emphasize less welding= and more (overbuilt) interfaces (mostly ignored because if cost) more modu= larity, more standardization, and TDD thinking, which translates into hypot= hesis to test rig and interface, then design to pass. These are not quite u= nit tests, but somewhere between unit and functional tests. Selling these i= deas in mechanical engineering teams today is like selling OO in the 90s. S= ome get it and love it, others don't care, and most are sorta neutral.= =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">By decoupling an= d enabling reuse we decrease the amount of engineering labour required to b= uild new H/W systems. Many engineers do not think this is a good idea, sinc= e they're paid for every hour of engineering required ("and we'= ;re going to engineer the sh*t outa this thing"). Similarly, sales of = standardized parts generate less profit then sales of specialized parts.=C2= = =A0 Case in point, try to mount wheels for a bmw on a similar sized sedan = from another manufacturer. There are dozens bolt patterns to hold a wheel o= n a car, the reason for so many has to do with profit, not passing the test= of holding a wheel on.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">= Being in the Scrum camp more than XP, in every CSM I overview in detail TDD= , CI, Pairing, Mobbing and Swarming. Also explain that you have to look at = XP,=C2=A0 not Scrum for great ideas on how to make great quality software.<= /div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I am at a loss on how to= sell these ideas though. At a client who I started working with Scrum in 2= 010 I have trained most the staff on Scrum. They have<span style=3D"font-fa= mily:sans-serif">=C2=A0over 1000 developers. We</span><span style=3D"font-f= amily:sans-serif">=C2=A0sold a total of 2 XP/TDD immersion courses with a w= ell known XP Coach</span>=C2=A0after strenuous internal marketing from HR a= nd finally a Dev Sr Mgr assigning people to the classes. This same company = spends millions per year on dev training and regularly sell out courses on = Swift, C++, python, r, react, vmware, AWS, Azure, tensorflow etc. etc. Budg= et isn't the issue, demand for XP practices training is the struggle.</= div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So in 20 years we still d= o not have the business case we need to convince developers to widely adopt= and spread these ideas.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"= >To end on a more positive note, tool support has never been better!</div><= div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Cheers Robin.</div><div dir=3D= "auto"><br><div dir=3D"auto">Robin Dymond, CST<br>Managing Partner, Innovel= <br><a href=3D"http://www.innovel.net" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"= >www.innovel.net</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.scrumtraining.com" rel=3D"nor= eferrer" target=3D"_blank">www.scrumtraining.com</a><br>Direct: (804) 239-4= 329<br>twitter: @robindymond<br>Linkedin:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.linke= din.com/in/robindymond" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.li= nkedin.com/in/robindymond</a></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot= e"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 3, 2019, 12:42 PM Slav= a Imeshev via Groups.Io <imeshev=3D<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= " rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<b= r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex= ;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style= =3D"font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font= -size:13px"><div></div> <div dir=3D"ltr">George, thank you for raising the discussion to t= he top level.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><p>Thin= gs that have changed for me over the past 20 years:</p> </div><div dir=3D"ltr">1. XP as a practice has been forgotten and many= parts of it have fallen out of use.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div d= ir=3D"ltr">2. I find myself continuously reinstalling [XP and Agile] best p= ractices at the jobs I'm taking on. Continuous Integration, unit testin= g, refactoring, iterative development...<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></di= v><div dir=3D"ltr">3. Teams are practicing either 'run as fast as you c= an' SDLC which is essentially a no-practice, or full blown waterfall, a= s in 'let's-plan-a-year-out' with all consequences.<br></div><d= iv dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">4. Raise of the 'Product Mana= ger' job which is a strange combo of a member of sales organization and= a surrogate user. Engineers no longer can talk to users.<br></div><div dir= = =3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">5. Use cases is not a thing anymore. U= se cases were replaced with user stories that are short blurbs leading to a= mbiguity in implementation and testing and last moment changes in requireme= nts.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">6. Large scale pr= ojects. SW organizations can easily be in hundreds of people that ends up i= n a zoo of way of doing things unless top leadership pushes a particular ap= proach down.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">7. Code revie= ws now must which is great.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D= "ltr">All in all, I feel that new entrants into the software development jo= b are not educated in the engineering part of it. As a result the SDLC is l= argely defined by idiosyncrasies of the engineering leaders. Or teams self-= organize and end up with no-process.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><d= iv dir=3D"ltr">Slava<br></div></div><div><br></div> </div><div id=3D"gmail-m_8751618383779851809gmail-m_24605649366969= 65420m_3056555070346044638m_-7211969762002570324ydp1a024bf0yahoo_quoted_563= 5526747"> <div style=3D"font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica= ,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)"> <div> On Tuesday, December 3, 2019, 9:51:18 AM PST, George P= aci <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" tar= get=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote: </div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div><div id=3D"gmail-m_8751618383779851809gmail-m_2460564= 936696965420m_3056555070346044638m_-7211969762002570324ydp1a024bf0yiv282050= 3225"> <div> <p>(This thread was buried in another thread; I'm trying to transplant it to the top level so it gets more exposure.)</p> <p>Things that have changed for me over the past 20 years:</p> <p>1) Nobody says "XP" or "Extreme Programming" an= ymore, even when they're doing many of the practices.</p> <p>2) Developers didn't test 20 years ago. Now unit test suites ar= e ubiquitous, and many of them are well-maintained.</p> <p>3) Everybody's talking about User Stories, which were weird 20 years ago. Unfortunately, the tools have taken over the meaning, and I need to chant, "The card is a token for an ongoing conversation" over and over. Sometimes it gets through.</p> <p>4) I no longer focus on the practices when I spread them; I just start using them when I pair with someone, and they catch on (or don't).=C2=A0 Maybe I should have specific sessions where I focu= s on, say, refactoring, or TDD.</p> <p>There's probably more I've forgotten. 1999 was a long time = ago.</p> <p>--George</p> <p>A lot of people mistake a short memory for a clear conscience.<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - Doug Larson<br> </p> <div> <table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"> <tbody> <tr> <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap align=3D"RIGHT">Subject: </th> <td>Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?</td> </tr> <tr> <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap align=3D"RIGHT">Date: </th> <td>Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:39:12 -0700</td> </tr> <tr> <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap align=3D"RIGHT">From: </th> <td>Jay Bazuzi <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"nofoll= ow noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"><[email protected]></a></td> </tr> <tr> <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap align=3D"RIGHT">Reply-To: </th> <td><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"nof= ollow noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= </a></td> </tr> <tr> <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap align=3D"RIGHT">To: </th> <td><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"nof= ollow noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= </a></td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <br> <br> <div dir=3D"ltr">From Arlo I heard a story that Corey Haines would experiment with doing a project without one of the practices that he normally relied on for success. He found that his defect rate was steadily decreasing over time, project to project, but when he skipped TDD his defect remained the=C2=A0same (he wasn'= ;t learning) and when he skipped Refactoring his defect rate went up (quality depends on design more than on tests). <div><br> </div> <div>That seems to match your experience, JB.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>-J</div> </div> <br> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 7:38 AM J. B. Rainsberger <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"= rel=3D"nofollow noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">jbrains762@gmail.= com</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli= d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 3:16 PM Ken Auer <<a href=3D"mailto:ken.auer@rolemodels= oftware.com" rel=3D"nofollow noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ken.a= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p= x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks, JB, <div><br> </div> <div>I was surprised.=C2=A0 Let's see what happens.= =C2=A0 The timing is interesting as I was just recently prompted to dig out some old articles/papers I've written and have some reflective=C2=A0time to publish updates... what is timeless since the early 2000s and what has evolved (at least for me).</div> </div> </blockquote> <div><br> </div> <div>This leads to a wider discussion regarding what has changed for you as an XP enthusiast and practitioner over the years. I'd like to keep the question wide ope= n, so don't hold back.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>I recently experimented with evolutionary design without tests and I found it enjoyable and illuminating.</= div> <div><br> </div> <div>I worked with a group of 3 people. They wanted to practise microsteps and to see a design evolve. For 3 hours, I drove while they typed. They practised the microsteps inside their IDE (elementary refactorings, keystrokes) and we went through 2 features of one of my teaching examples, "test"-driven (meaning that w= e wrote and ran the tests in our heads). It worked surprisingly well! They got to see some simple design evolve (albeit with no pressure from tests) and that made them happy. They could more clearly _see_ the power of evolutionary design, related to being able to defer commitment and change directions as needs change. We also just went more quickly than we would have had we written the tests.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Of course, I told them that if we got into trouble, then we'd start writing tests. Fortunately, we didn= 9;t get into trouble in just 3 hours. :)</div> <div><br> </div> <div>So it turns out that after a decade or two of practise, one can live without the tests a surprising amount---at least in some contexts.</div> -- <br> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div>J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: <a href=3D"https://tdd.tra= ining" rel=3D"nofollow noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tdd= .training</a> :: <span><a href=3D"http://www.jbrains.ca" rel=3D"nofollow no= referrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.jbrains.ca</a> :: <a href=3D"http://www.thecodewhisperer.com" rel=3D"= nofollow noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.thecodewhisper= er.com</a></span></div> <div><br> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </div></div> </div> </div></div> </blockquote></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><= div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>blog: <a href=3D"http://eikonne.= wordpress.com/" rel=3D"me nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://eikonne.wordpr= ess.com</a></div><div>LinkedIn: <a href=3D"http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-= ikonne" target=3D"_blank">http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne</a></div> <div>twitter: @eikonne</div></div></div></div></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160436">View/Reply Online (#160436)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= = =3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%20y= ou%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= =3DPrivate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20change= d%20for%20you%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/post">New Topic</a><br= > <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/editsub/2417047">Your Su= bscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner<= /a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/= xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --0000000000007dceea0598f8092f--