Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"James Grenning" <[email protected]> Fri, 6 Dec 2019 13:11:33 -0600
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--EdoMail5deaa7e5_4c34f1cf_585a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Mandating TDD would be like mandating that all shots in pool be bank shots. Unless someone had the skill in bank shots, not many balks will be pocketed. TDD and bank shots require skill to execute. Skills take time to learn. Mandating test automation is a business decision, as the cost of manual retest is so high. There are skills to learn here too, though maybe less difficult to get started. James > > On Dec 6, 2019 at 9:37 AM, R Dymond <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 8:01 AM Eb Alson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Under what circumstances should a leader impose any of these practices? > > > > > > > > > > I think that was his question as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 9:58 AM R Dymond <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > CNCF is really impressive. That growth! It is underwritten by linux foundation and google. > > > > > > > > > I was discussing TDD with a leader in a software company that just closed a $40M round and expects to grow from 19 to 40 teams. He said they have some teams who do TDD and pairing all the time, some who do it only on harder stuff and some who do not. They have some former thoughtworks alumni and many junior staff, and given the difficulty of recruiting senior staff in their location they expect many of their new hires to be 0 to 3 years of experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > He has had the experience of being in company where they mandated TDD and pairing, then had some people leave and other people who wanted to work that way join. > > > > > > > > > > > > So it is a puzzle to him as well. He doesn't feel he can mandate it at this point, and also he would prefer pull to push. > > > > > > > > > Robin Dymond, CST > > > Managing Partner, Innovel > > > www.innovel.net > > > www.scrumtraining.com > > > Direct: (804) 239-4329 > > > twitter: @robindymond > > > Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 7:13 AM Ron Jeffries <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi ... > > > > > > > > sent from iPad, probably via Mars. Errors, if any, are not mine. > > > > [email protected] is a better address for me, maybe. > > > > > > > > > On Dec 5, 2019, at 4:36 PM, Slava Imeshev via Groups.Io <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > There may be many more ways to accomplish this without doing it Scrum way. Just a few initial ideas: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Textbooks combined with guided self-study. > > > > > 2. Udemy/Cousera/Youtube video courses. > > > > > 3. Reference cards to be given to new hires ("This is how we do it here"). > > > > > 4. Continuous stream of talks at conferences and meetups. > > > > > 5. Magazine articles. > > > > > 6. Study groups. > > > > > 5. A mobile app with references. > > > > > > > > > > What else? > > > > > > > > Yes I think there are ways like that, and they are needed. I believe that the price has to be low enough that developers themselves will pay it if need be. This makes me think that, in early days at least, until volumes come up -- if they do -- the creation of these things needs to be underweritten. > > > > > > > > R > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > blog: http://eikonne.wordpress.com > > > > LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne > > > > twitter: @eikonne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#160459): https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/message/160459 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- --EdoMail5deaa7e5_4c34f1cf_585a Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline <div id=3D"edo-message"><div>Mandating TDD would be like mandating that all= shots in pool be bank shots. Unless someone had the skill in bank sh= ots, not many balks will be pocketed. </div><div><br></div><div>= TDD and bank shots require skill to execute. Skills take time to lear= n. </div><div><br></div><div>Mandating test automation is a business d= ecision, as the cost of manual retest is so high. There are skills to learn= here too, though maybe less difficult to get started. </div><div><br>= </div><div>James<div id=3D"edo-signature"></div></div><div><br></div></div>= <div id=3D"edo-original"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div id=3D"edo-meta= ">On Dec 6, 2019 at 9:37 AM, R Dymond <<a href=3D"mailto:rdymond@innovel= .net">[email protected]</a>> wrote: <br><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><d= iv><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"= >On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 8:01 AM Eb Alson <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= om">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo= te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"= ><div><div dir=3D"auto">Under what circumstances should a leader impose any= of these practices?</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">= <br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I think that was his question as well.</div><di= v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><bloc= kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc= c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"l= tr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 9:58 AM R Dymond <<a hre= f=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">rdymo= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st= yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div = dir=3D"auto">CNCF is really impressive. That growth! It is underwritten by = linux foundation and google.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I= was discussing TDD with a leader in a software company that just closed a = $40M round and expects to grow from 19 to 40 teams. He said they have some = teams who do TDD and pairing all the time, some who do it only on harder st= uff and some who do not. They have some former thoughtworks alumni and many= junior staff, and given the difficulty of recruiting senior staff in their= location they expect many of their new hires to be 0 to 3 years of experie= nce.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">He has had the expe= rience of being in company where they mandated TDD and pairing, then had so= me people leave and other people who wanted to work that way join.</div><di= v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So it is a puzzle to him as well= . He doesn't feel he can mandate it at this point, and also he would p= refer pull to push.<br><br><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"a= uto">Robin Dymond, CST<br>Managing Partner, Innovel<br><a href=3D"http://ww= w.innovel.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">www.innovel.net</a><br>= <a href=3D"http://www.scrumtraining.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferre= r">www.scrumtraining.com</a><br>Direct: (804) 239-4329<br>twitter: @robindy= mond<br>Linkedin: <a href=3D"https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond" = target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymon= d</a></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas= s=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 7:13 AM Ron Jeffries <<a href=3D"m= ailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ronjef= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote= " style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">H= i ...<br> <br> sent from iPad, probably via Mars. Errors, if any, are not mine.<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" targe= t=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a> is a better address for me, maybe.<br> <br> > On Dec 5, 2019, at 4:36 PM, Slava Imeshev via Groups.Io <imeshev= =3D<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" ta= rget=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> > There may be many more ways to accomplish this without doing it Scrum= way. Just a few initial ideas:<br> > <br> > 1. Textbooks combined with guided self-study.<br> > 2. Udemy/Cousera/Youtube video courses.<br> > 3. Reference cards to be given to new hires ("This is how we do it he= re").<br> > 4. Continuous stream of talks at conferences and meetups.<br> > 5. Magazine articles.<br> > 6. Study groups.<br> > 5. A mobile app with references.<br> > <br> > What else?<br> <br> Yes I think there are ways like that, and they are needed. I believe that = the price has to be low enough that developers themselves will pay it if ne= ed be. This makes me think that, in early days at least, until volumes come= up -- if they do -- the creation of these things needs to be underweritten= .<br> <br> R<br> <br> <br> <br> </blockquote></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" data-smartm= ail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>blog: <a href=3D"http://= eikonne.wordpress.com/" rel=3D"me nofollow noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht= tp://eikonne.wordpress.com</a></div><div>LinkedIn: <a href=3D"http://linked= in.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">http://link= edin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne</a></div> <div>twitter: @eikonne</div></div></div></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div></div></div> <br></blockquote></div></div> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160459">View/Reply Online (#160459)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= = =3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%20y= ou%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DP= rivate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20f= or%20you%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/post">New Topic</a><br= > <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/editsub/2417047">Your Su= bscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner<= /a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/= xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --EdoMail5deaa7e5_4c34f1cf_585a--