Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"Slava Imeshev via Groups.Io" <[email protected]> Fri, 6 Dec 2019 11:18:48 -0800
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.extreme-programming |
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--Apple-Mail=_72EC7554-AD1B-4E76-ABC0-38221A2DF5D8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I=E2=80=99m not sure if mandating alone would help. Continuous education an= d encouragement is needed to give and maintain the skills until they become= a habit. Slava > On Dec 6, 2019, at 11:11 AM, James Grenning <[email protected]> wrote= : >=20 > Mandating TDD would be like mandating that all shots in pool be bank sho= ts. Unless someone had the skill in bank shots, not many balks will be po= cketed.=20 >=20 > TDD and bank shots require skill to execute. Skills take time to learn.= = =20 >=20 > Mandating test automation is a business decision, as the cost of manual = retest is so high. There are skills to learn here too, though maybe less di= fficult to get started.=20 >=20 > James >=20 >> On Dec 6, 2019 at 9:37 AM, R Dymond <[email protected] <mailto:rdymon= [email protected]>> wrote:=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 8:01 AM Eb Alson <[email protected] <mailto:amaeze@= gmail.com>> wrote: >> Under what circumstances should a leader impose any of these practices? >>=20 >> I think that was his question as well. >>=20 >>=20 >> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 9:58 AM R Dymond <[email protected] <mailto:rd= [email protected]>> wrote: >> CNCF is really impressive. That growth! It is underwritten by linux fou= ndation and google. >>=20 >> I was discussing TDD with a leader in a software company that just clos= ed a $40M round and expects to grow from 19 to 40 teams. He said they have = some teams who do TDD and pairing all the time, some who do it only on hard= er stuff and some who do not. They have some former thoughtworks alumni and= many junior staff, and given the difficulty of recruiting senior staff in = their location they expect many of their new hires to be 0 to 3 years of ex= perience. >>=20 >> He has had the experience of being in company where they mandated TDD a= nd pairing, then had some people leave and other people who wanted to work = that way join. >>=20 >> So it is a puzzle to him as well. He doesn't feel he can mandate it at = this point, and also he would prefer pull to push. >>=20 >> Robin Dymond, CST >> Managing Partner, Innovel >> www.innovel.net <http://www.innovel.net/> >> www.scrumtraining.com <http://www.scrumtraining.com/> >> Direct: (804) 239-4329 >> twitter: @robindymond >> Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond <https://www.linkedin= .com/in/robindymond> >> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 7:13 AM Ron Jeffries <[email protected] <ma= ilto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> Hi ... >>=20 >> sent from iPad, probably via Mars. Errors, if any, are not mine. >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> is a better address fo= r me, maybe. >>=20 >> > On Dec 5, 2019, at 4:36 PM, Slava Imeshev via Groups.Io <imeshev=3Dya= [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >=20 >> > There may be many more ways to accomplish this without doing it Scrum= way. Just a few initial ideas: >> >=20 >> > 1. Textbooks combined with guided self-study. >> > 2. Udemy/Cousera/Youtube video courses. >> > 3. Reference cards to be given to new hires ("This is how we do it he= re"). >> > 4. Continuous stream of talks at conferences and meetups. >> > 5. Magazine articles. >> > 6. Study groups. >> > 5. A mobile app with references. >> >=20 >> > What else? >>=20 >> Yes I think there are ways like that, and they are needed. I believe th= at the price has to be low enough that developers themselves will pay it if= need be. This makes me think that, in early days at least, until volumes c= ome up -- if they do -- the creation of these things needs to be underwerit= ten. >>=20 >> R >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> blog: http://eikonne.wordpress.com <http://eikonne.wordpress.com/> >> LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne <http://linkedin.com/i= n/ebenezer-ikonne> >> twitter: @eikonne >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#160460): https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160460 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/61983806= 5/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- --Apple-Mail=_72EC7554-AD1B-4E76-ABC0-38221A2DF5D8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset= =3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: = space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not s= ure if mandating alone would help. Continuous education and encouragement i= s needed to give and maintain the skills until they become a habit.<div cla= ss=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Slava</div><div class=3D""><br= class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On De= c 6, 2019, at 11:11 AM, James Grenning <<a href=3D"mailto:james@wingman-= sw.com" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br class=3D"Ap= ple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div id=3D"edo-message" class=3D""= ><div class=3D"">Mandating TDD would be like mandating that all shots in po= ol be bank shots. Unless someone had the skill in bank shots, n= ot many balks will be pocketed. </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><= /div><div class=3D"">TDD and bank shots require skill to execute. Ski= lls take time to learn. </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><di= v class=3D"">Mandating test automation is a business decision, as the cost = of manual retest is so high. There are skills to learn here too, though may= be less difficult to get started. </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""= ></div><div class=3D"">James<div id=3D"edo-signature" class=3D""></div></di= v><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div id=3D"edo-original" class= = =3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div id=3D"edo-= meta" class=3D"">On Dec 6, 2019 at 9:37 AM, R Dymond <<a href=3D"mailto:= [email protected]" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote: <br clas= s=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div class=3D""><b= r class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cla= ss=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 8:01 AM Eb Alson <<a href=3D"mail= to:[email protected]" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br class=3D= ""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde= r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" c= lass=3D"">Under what circumstances should a leader impose any of these prac= tices?</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br= class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">I think that was his questio= n as well.</div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir= =3D"auto" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail= _quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:= 1ex"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"= ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 9:58 AM R Dymond <<a hr= ef=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" clas= s=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote c= lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;= padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">CNCF is really impressive. T= hat growth! It is underwritten by linux foundation and google.<div dir=3D"a= uto" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">I was dis= cussing TDD with a leader in a software company that just closed a $40M rou= nd and expects to grow from 19 to 40 teams. He said they have some teams wh= o do TDD and pairing all the time, some who do it only on harder stuff and = some who do not. They have some former thoughtworks alumni and many junior = staff, and given the difficulty of recruiting senior staff in their locatio= n they expect many of their new hires to be 0 to 3 years of experience.</di= v><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class= = =3D"">He has had the experience of being in company where they mandated TD= D and pairing, then had some people leave and other people who wanted to wo= rk that way join.</div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><d= iv dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">So it is a puzzle to him as well. He doesn't fee= l he can mandate it at this point, and also he would prefer pull to pu= sh.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" di= r=3D"auto" class=3D"">Robin Dymond, CST<br class=3D"">Managing Partner, Inn= ovel<br class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.innovel.net/" target=3D"_blank" re= l=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"">www.innovel.net</a><br class=3D""><a href=3D"ht= tp://www.scrumtraining.com/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"= ">www.scrumtraining.com</a><br class=3D"">Direct: (804) 239-4329<br class= =3D"">twitter: @robindymond<br class=3D"">Linkedin: <a href=3D"https:= //www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" cla= ss=3D"">https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond</a></div></div></div><br cl= ass=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">O= n Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 7:13 AM Ron Jeffries <<a href=3D"mailto:ronjeffriesa= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"">ronjeffriesac= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q= uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e= x">Hi ...<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> sent from iPad, probably via Mars. Errors, if any, are not mine.<br class= =3D""> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" targe= t=3D"_blank" class=3D"">[email protected]</a> is a better address for me,= maybe.<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> > On Dec 5, 2019, at 4:36 PM, Slava Imeshev via Groups.Io <imeshev= =3D<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" ta= rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""= > > <br class=3D""> > There may be many more ways to accomplish this without doing it Scrum= way. Just a few initial ideas:<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > 1. Textbooks combined with guided self-study.<br class=3D""> > 2. Udemy/Cousera/Youtube video courses.<br class=3D""> > 3. Reference cards to be given to new hires ("This is how we do it he= re").<br class=3D""> > 4. Continuous stream of talks at conferences and meetups.<br class=3D= ""> > 5. Magazine articles.<br class=3D""> > 6. Study groups.<br class=3D""> > 5. A mobile app with references.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > What else?<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> Yes I think there are ways like that, and they are needed. I believe that = the price has to be low enough that developers themselves will pay it if ne= ed be. This makes me think that, in early days at least, until volumes come= up -- if they do -- the creation of these things needs to be underweritten= .<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> R<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> </blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder">= </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div></blockq= uote></div></div>-- <br class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" data-smartmail=3D"gmail= _signature" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div cla= ss=3D"">blog: <a href=3D"http://eikonne.wordpress.com/" rel=3D"me nofollow = noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">http://eikonne.wordpress.com</a></= div><div class=3D"">LinkedIn: <a href=3D"http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ik= onne" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"">http://linkedin.com/i= n/ebenezer-ikonne</a></div> <div class=3D"">twitter: @eikonne</div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><= br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"we= bkit-block-placeholder"></div></blockquote></div></div></div> <br class=3D""></blockquote></div></div> </div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160460">View/Reply Online (#160460)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= = =3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%20y= ou%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DPriv= ate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%= 20you%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/post">New Topic</a><br= > <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/editsub/2417047">Your Su= bscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner<= /a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/= xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --Apple-Mail=_72EC7554-AD1B-4E76-ABC0-38221A2DF5D8--