Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"Slava Imeshev via Groups.Io" <[email protected]> Sat, 7 Dec 2019 01:33:22 +0000 (UTC)
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David,
This is my observation is well and the question of how to make changes sti=
ck really bugs me.
Slava
On Friday, December 6, 2019, 1:54:11 PM PST, David Kramer <david@thekr=
amers.net> wrote:
=20
(Hey, new list member, been lurking for a few weeks to get a feel for it.=
=C2=A0 Software Engineering Manager and Agile Coach currently looking for =
opportunities for either role, on the Board of https://agilenewengland.org =
)
=20
Part of the "people problem" with this stuff is that as is clear from soci=
ety as a whole, people don't always act in their best interest, and/or don'=
t strive for the same goals we would in their shoes.
=20
Having worked at several companies that were trying to break free of "smal=
l company ways of doing things" and trying to drive Agile transformations, =
better software development practices, and empowered teams, I see a lot of =
push-back from the very people that hire me, let alone the developers.=C2=
=A0 As much as they wanted to benefit from Agile, they didn't want to give=
up control.=C2=A0 They could not give up micromanaging.=C2=A0 It was more =
important for them to be in control than it was for the company to be succe=
ssful.=C2=A0=20
=20
=20
One company I worked with, I had done a lot of work on empowering teams, e=
stablishing release strategies, branching strategies, continuous builds, et=
c. =C2=A0 Before I got there the devs had no say in what stories went into =
the sprint, and there was no story grooming, so they would often take multi=
ple sprints to complete, and "done" work would sit weeks or longer before =
ending up in a release.=C2=A0 We made great strides, gave the development t=
eam the power to push back on stories that weren't ready, got stuff tested =
earlier and more thoroughly, had more successful releases, and employee sat=
isfaction improved immensely.=C2=A0 I needed to go out on medical leave for=
a while, and when I came back, every single practice I had introduced got =
rolled back, with expected results.=20
=20
=20
With the developers, it is somewhat easier to talk to them about the benef=
its to them that these practices offer.=C2=A0 With upper management, there =
seems to be a lot more in play than listing costs and benefits.
=20
On 12/6/19 2:59 PM, R Dymond wrote:
=20
Been there, done that (sorta).=20
=C2=A0In a startup with a junior crew, had every dev pair with a TW consu=
ltant to learn TDD and CI. It was 2002 and=C2=A0we were the first outside t=
houghtworks to use CC.net. we ran with cc.net and some devs doing tdd some =
not. Ran that way for a year.=20
Then they lost their investor and downsized, I left. After I left the re=
maining team abandoned tdd (except one infected dev), and soon after turned=
off cc.net. Eventually, they did choose to revive cc.net, 3 years later.=
=20
I was shocked when I heard the devs chose to abandon disciplines that ha=
d helped to save the business. It took them 3 years to mature to a point wh=
ere they recognized the value of CI. I doubt they do tdd. Since that time I=
have been involved with many Agile transitions and seen the same patterns =
in adopting Scrum and Agile.
=20
Robin Dymond, CST
Managing Partner, Innovel
www.innovel.net
www.scrumtraining.com
Direct: (804) 239-4329
twitter: @robindymond
Linkedin:=C2=A0https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond
On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 12:43 PM Ron Jeffries <[email protected]> wr=
ote:
In my view this should never, ever, be done:
=20
=20
On Dec 6, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Eb Alson <[email protected]> wrote:=20
Imposing at the right altitude is critical then because =E2=80=9CUsing XP=
or doing TDD=E2=80=9C can also be the goal/standard =C2=A0that a CTO sets.=
=
=20
Ron Jeffries ronjeffries.com There's no word for accountability in Finni=
sh.=C2=A0 Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has =
been subtracted.=C2=A0 --Pasi Sahlberg
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp18fbbdf4yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: =
13px;"><div></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">David,</div><div dir=3D"ltr=
" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Th=
is is my observation is well and the question of how to make changes stick =
really bugs me.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Slava<br></div><div><br></div>
</div><div id=3D"ydp8508c91fyahoo_quoted_6319033819" class=3D"ydp8=
508c91fyahoo_quoted">
<div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div>
On Friday, December 6, 2019, 1:54:11 PM PST, David Kra=
mer <[email protected]> wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div id=3D"ydp8508c91fyiv5191291559"><div>
<p>(Hey, new list member, been lurking for a few weeks to get a feel
for it. Software Engineering Manager and Agile Coach currently
looking for opportunities for either role, on the Board of
<a shape=3D"rect" class=3D"ydp8508c91fyiv5191291559moz-txt-link-free=
text" href=3D"https://agilenewengland.org" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://agilenewengland.org</a> )</p>
<p>Part of the "people problem" with this stuff is that as is clear
from society as a whole, people don't always act in their best
interest, and/or don't strive for the same goals we would in their
shoes.</p>
<p>Having worked at several companies that were trying to break free
of "small company ways of doing things" and trying to drive Agile
transformations, better software development practices, and
empowered teams, I see a lot of push-back from the very people
that hire me, let alone the developers. As much as they wanted=
to
benefit from Agile, they didn't want to give up control. They
could not give up micromanaging. It was more important for the=
m
to be in control than it was for the company to be successful. =
<br clear=3D"none">
</p>
<p>One company I worked with, I had done a lot of work on empowering
teams, establishing release strategies, branching strategies,
continuous builds, etc. Before I got there the devs had no sa=
y
in what stories went into the sprint, and there was no story
grooming, so they would often take multiple sprints to complete,
and "done" work would sit weeks or longer before ending up in a
release. We made great strides, gave the development team the
power to push back on stories that weren't ready, got stuff tested
earlier and more thoroughly, had more successful releases, and
employee satisfaction improved immensely. I needed to go out o=
n
medical leave for a while, and when I came back, every single
practice I had introduced got rolled back, with expected results.
<br clear=3D"none">
</p>
<p>With the developers, it is somewhat easier to talk to them about
the benefits to them that these practices offer. With upper
management, there seems to be a lot more in play than listing
costs and benefits.<br clear=3D"none">
</p>
<div class=3D"ydp8508c91fyiv5191291559moz-cite-prefix">On 12/6/19 2:59=
PM, R Dymond wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
</blockquote></div><div><div>Been there, done that (sorta).
<div><br clear=3D"none">
<div> In a startup with a junior crew, had every
dev pair with a TW consultant to learn TDD and CI. It was
2002 and <span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;">we were =
the
first outside thoughtworks to use CC.net. we ran with <a sha=
pe=3D"rect" href=3D"http://cc.net" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">cc.ne=
t</a>
and some devs doing tdd some not. Ran that way for a year.</=
span></div>
<div><font face=3D"sans-serif"><br clear=3D"none">
</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"sans-serif">Then they lost their
investor and downsized, I left. After I left the remaining
team abandoned tdd (except one infected dev), and soon
after turned off <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://cc.net" re=
l=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">cc.net</a>. Eventually, they did
choose to revive <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://cc.net" re=
l=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">cc.net</a>, 3 years later.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"sans-serif"><br clear=3D"none">
</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"sans-serif">I was shocked when I
heard the devs chose to abandon disciplines that had
helped to save the business. It took them 3 years to
mature to a point where they recognized the value of CI. I
doubt they do tdd. Since that time I have been involved
with many Agile transitions and seen the same patterns in
adopting Scrum and Agile.<br clear=3D"none">
</font><br clear=3D"none">
<div>Robin
Dymond, CST<br clear=3D"none">
Managing Partner, Innovel<br clear=3D"none">
<a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.innovel.net" rel=3D"nof=
ollow" target=3D"_blank">www.innovel.net</a><br clear=3D"none">
<a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.scrumtraining.com" rel=
=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">www.scrumtraining.com</a><br clear=3D"none=
">
Direct: (804) 239-4329<br clear=3D"none">
twitter: @robindymond<br clear=3D"none">
Linkedin: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.linkedi=
n.com/in/robindymond" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://www.linked=
in.com/in/robindymond</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"ydp8508c91fyiv5191291559gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"ydp8508c91fyiv5191291559gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On F=
ri, Dec 6, 2019, 12:43 PM
Ron Jeffries <<a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:ronjeffriesacm=
@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>=
>
wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"ydp8508c91fyiv5191291559gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div>In
my view this should never, ever, be done:<br clear=3D"none">
<div><br clear=3D"none">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Dec 6, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Eb Alson <<a shape=3D=
"rect" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">=
[email protected]</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div><span style=3D"font-family: ArialMT; font-size: 18px;=
font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-inde=
nt: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text=
-decoration-line: none; text-decoration-style: solid; text-decoration-color=
: currentcolor; float: none; display: inline !important;">Imposing
at the right altitude is critical then because
=E2=80=9CUsing XP or doing TDD=E2=80=9C can also be th=
e
goal/standard that a CTO sets.</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; t=
ext-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0=
px;"><span style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-fa=
mily: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: n=
ormal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-s=
pace: normal; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px;">
</span><div><span style=3D"border-collapse: separate; co=
lor: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-weight:=
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; tex=
t-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: =
0px;">
</span><div><br clear=3D"none">
Ron Jeffries</div>
<div><a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://ronjeffries.co=
m" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">ronjeffries.com</a></div>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;border-spaci=
ng:0px;">
</span><div>There's no word for accountability in
Finnish. </div>
<div>Accountability is something that is left
when responsibility has been subtracted. </=
div>
<div>--Pasi Sahlberg</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div><div>
</div></div></div></div>
</div>
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