Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"R Dymond" <[email protected]> Fri, 6 Dec 2019 18:51:06 -0700
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--000000000000089e4105991366b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Back to JB's (Hi JB!) original question: For me I think a lot has changed, some of which this question has pointed out. I think things were a bit more simple in some respects in 2002-2003 because I didn't have much experience with these ideas. I also have become educated on the difficulty of changing minds and organizations. VHS vs Beta, Windows vs MacOS, and now SAFe vs LeSS. Better marketing and weaker product tends to beat better product with weaker marketing. As an engineer I think this sucks, but there have been far too many examples to deny it, and it is independent of field or technology. It still sucks to be on the losing side with the better ideas. I am surprised at how fast cloud adoption is moving. Companies with 30 year old tech stacks are investing hundreds of millions to get off the old stuff and migrate to the cloud. This seems like a huge opportunity to change *how* people code, so I think there should be a real sense of urgency to grow TDD adoption. However we face the same dilemma: Does the developer take limited time to learn TDD or Kubernetes? Do they learn TDD or GO? One is recognized by employers and gets them a higher paying job and one doesn't. Perhaps XP should be renamed Cloud Craft and the sponsor is the Cloud Craft Guild. There ya go, only took an old fashioned and some wine to get the name game going. Cheers, Robin. On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 3:26 PM Eb Alson <[email protected]> wrote: > Teaching only goes so far. > > "You can only tell, if it is a request or a demand, by how I treat you, if > you don't do it." Non-Violent Communication , Marshal B. Rosenberg > > You can teach all day but if you don't mandate then it's optional. The > entire team could decide post-teaching they want to do it. Maybe. > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 4:54 PM JeffGrigg <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> There's a lot to be said for teaching one's employees the skills and >> knowledge you require them to have. And something to be said for hiring >> people who have these skills, or are at least open to learning them. >> >> >> And I *used to be* that good at pool -- only bank shots allowed. ;-> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 1:11 PM James Grenning <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Mandating TDD would be like mandating that all shots in pool be bank >>> shots. Unless someone had the skill in bank shots, not many balks will be >>> pocketed. >>> >>> TDD and bank shots require skill to execute. Skills take time to learn. >>> >>> Mandating test automation is a business decision, as the cost of manual >>> retest is so high. There are skills to learn here too, though maybe less >>> difficult to get started. >>> >>> James >>> >>> ... >> >>> > > -- > blog: http://eikonne.wordpress.com > LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne > twitter: @eikonne > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#160480): https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/message/160480 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- --000000000000089e4105991366b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Back to JB's (Hi JB!) original question:<div><br></div= ><div>For me I think a lot has changed, some of which this question has poi= nted out.</div><div><br></div><div>I think things were a bit more simple in= some respects in 2002-2003 because I didn't have much experience with = these ideas.</div><div>I also have become educated on the difficulty of cha= nging minds and organizations.</div><div> VHS vs Beta, Windows vs MacOS, an= d now=C2=A0SAFe vs LeSS. Better marketing and weaker product tends to beat = better product with weaker marketing. As an engineer I think this sucks, bu= t there have been far too many examples to deny it, and it is independent o= f field or technology. It still sucks to be on the losing side with the bet= ter ideas.</div><div>I am surprised at how fast cloud adoption is moving. C= ompanies with 30 year old tech stacks are investing hundreds of millions to= get off the old stuff and migrate to the cloud. This seems like a huge opp= ortunity to change *how* people code, so I think there should be a real sen= se of urgency to grow TDD adoption. However we face the same dilemma: Does = the developer take limited time to learn TDD or Kubernetes? Do they learn T= DD or GO? One is recognized by employers and gets them a higher paying job = and one doesn't.</div><div><br></div><div>Perhaps XP should be renamed = Cloud Craft and the sponsor is the Cloud Craft Guild. There ya go, only too= k an old fashioned and some wine to get the name game going.</div><div><br>= </div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Robin.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></di= v><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On F= ri, Dec 6, 2019 at 3:26 PM Eb Alson <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"= >[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"= style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p= adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Teaching only goes so far.=C2=A0</di= v><div><br></div><div><div lang=3D"en" dir=3D"auto" style=3D"border:0px sol= id black;box-sizing:border-box;color:rgb(20,23,26);display:inline;font-vari= ant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-= size:23px;line-height:1.3125;font-family:system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSy= stemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Ubuntu,"Helvetica Neue",sans= -serif;margin:0px;padding:0px 0px 15px;white-space:pre-wrap;min-width:0px">= <span style=3D"border:0px solid black;box-sizing:border-box;color:inherit;d= isplay:inline;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;f= ont-stretch:inherit;font-size:inherit;line-height:1.3125;font-family:system= -ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Ubuntu,&qu= ot;Helvetica Neue",sans-serif;margin:0px;padding:0px;white-space:inher= it;min-width:0px">"You can only tell, if it is a request or a demand, = by how I treat you, if you don't do it." Non-Violent Communication , Marshal B. Rosenberg</span></div><div style=3D= "border:0px solid black;box-sizing:border-box;display:flex;margin:0px 0px 1= 5px;min-height:0px;min-width:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:T= imes;font-size:15px"><br></div><div style=3D"border:0px solid black;box-siz= ing:border-box;display:flex;margin:0px 0px 15px;min-height:0px;min-width:0p= x;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:15px">You can te= ach all day but if you don't mandate then it's optional. The entire= team could decide post-teaching they want to do it. Maybe.</div></div><br>= <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, De= c 6, 2019 at 4:54 PM JeffGrigg <<a href=3D"mailto:jeffreytoddgrigg@gmail= .com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div>= <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>The= re's a lot to be said for teaching one's employees the skills and k= nowledge you require them to have. And something to be said for hiring peop= le who have these skills, or are at least open to learning them.</div><div>= <br></div><div><br></div><div>And I <i>used to be</i> that good at pool -- = only bank shots allowed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0;-></div><div><br></div><br><div cl= ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 6, 20= 19 at 1:11 PM James Grenning <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" ta= rget=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl= ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid= rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div id=3D"gmail-m_-4790784743569355576= gmail-m_-2152182896189032559gmail-m_-905982978602257060edo-message"><div>Ma= ndating TDD would be like mandating that all shots in pool be bank shots.= =C2=A0 Unless someone had the skill in bank shots,=C2=A0 not many balks wi= ll be pocketed.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>TDD and bank shots require s= kill to execute.=C2=A0 Skills take time to learn.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div= ><div>Mandating test automation is a business decision, as the cost of manu= al retest is so high. There are skills to learn here too, though maybe less= difficult to get started.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>James<div id=3D"g= mail-m_-4790784743569355576gmail-m_-2152182896189032559gmail-m_-90598297860= 2257060edo-signature"></div></div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div>..= .</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;= border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><= div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>blog: <a href=3D"http://eikonne.= wordpress.com/" rel=3D"me nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://eikonne.wordpr= ess.com</a></div><div>LinkedIn: <a href=3D"http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-= ikonne" target=3D"_blank">http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne</a></div> <div>twitter: @eikonne</div></div></div></div></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160480">View/Reply Online (#160480)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= = =3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%20y= ou%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DPr= ivate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20fo= r%20you%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/post">New Topic</a><br= > <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/editsub/2417047">Your Su= bscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner<= /a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/= xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --000000000000089e4105991366b9--