Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"Phil Goodwin" <[email protected]> Sat, 7 Dec 2019 09:18:21 -0800
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.extreme-programming |
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| Message-ID | <CAMMwyYp5yE-Mu=CAmUG5XwZxaK_A_igh1=dm2yJtG2Wz0kXBJA@mail.gmail.com> |
--0000000000001d49b20599205aff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sometimes it pays to not fight fire with fire. Things that are not well said are perhaps still worth saying. I think there's an interesting tension here. At the root are the patterns of dysfunction that pop up in the way people organize themselves to get work done. As a broad generalization we can try to get rid of the dysfunction by finding a better way and selling it, or we can meet the organizations we encounter where they are and whittle away at the dysfunction one behavior at a time. When I read Robin's post I'm reminded of the times we've tried to bring XP into an organization whose developers understood it well and were clear about not wanting it. One of the big problems I've encountered while fighting dysfunction is that dysfunction is not the same as non-function. Dysfunctional systems work. They just work in a way that is unpleasant or otherwise sub-optimal (usually by indirectly fulfilling needs that someone feels shame about). If you try to fix the dysfunction without fulfilling the unstated need the system will start pushing your changes right back out. James is right to be suspicious of any methodology that sells easily because transformative change is always uncomfortable (or else you'd already be doing it) and discomfort doesn't sell. I hear Robin making a different point, which is that we need to meet our teams in the condition where we find them and understand that they may be optimizing for differen= t values than we are. James is warning us away from accepting superficial changes that don't address the underlying issues. Robin is saying that we shouldn't be so stuck on our own values that we lose sight of what our customers are valuing. I think there's some common ground to be found in recognizing the need to dig into the needs and beliefs that drive the behaviors of the teams we're leading in order to improve the way they operate. When we do that we'll run into our own ideas about what is optima= l and often find that they are in conflict with the other leadership around us. It's in the process of resolving those conflicts that real improvement= s will come. And it's the process of resolution, not the resolution itself, that brings about meaningful change. If the process unfolds in an honest and vulnerabl= e way the results will work if they are at all practical. If it doesn't no amount of formal structure will save the team from itself. On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 6:34 PM Tim Ottinger via Groups.Io <linux_tim=3D [email protected]> wrote: > Aggro much? > > I think that there is no reason that people who aren=E2=80=99t pro-certi= fication > aren=E2=80=99t innovators in plenty of areas. Case in point: the origina= l XP > people. I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99ve seen an XP certification, so= there are no > innovators there? Do certifications cause innovation or prevent it? > > Now, that said, none of us gets to choose who the innovators are in the > world. You can expect whatever you want, as long as you don=E2=80=99t bl= ame the > world for not meeting your expectations. > > J. Holmes is well respected for his teaching, thinking, writing. I don= =E2=80=99t > think we need to rag on him or his views here. > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=3Di= OS> > > On Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 19:03, R Dymond <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Great. So we will not expect any innovation from you. That's OK. It took > me a while to realize that Extreme Positions don't really do anything > except reflect on me. Calling things broken doesn't fix it. Waiting for > others to change means everything is out of my control, and that is hand= y > if I want to criticize, and it absolves me of any responsibility. These > days I prefer to act, to have empathy, to recognize that people have > succeeded without many of the ideas we advocate. So we are not "right," = we > have a different approach that we think is better. Our CUSTOMERS by in > large do not agree that it is better. > > Regards > Robin > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2019, 5:44 PM <[email protected]> wrote: > > I'm always fascinated by folks who look at the corrupt, burning garbage > heap that is Scrum Certification and think, "I want that, but for > development practices." > > I'm increasingly of the opinion that XP remains useful precisely because > it has not had the same popularity that Scrum has suffered. I'm likewise= of > the opinion that something that sells as well as Scrum in a market full = of > broken management systems and toxic workplaces is to be viewed with extr= eme > suspicion. > >=20 > > -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#160483): https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160483 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/61983806= 5/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- --0000000000001d49b20599205aff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto"><div>Sometimes it pays to not fight fire with fire. Thing= s that are not well said are perhaps still worth saying.=C2=A0</div><div di= r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I think there's an interesting t= ension here. At the root are the patterns of dysfunction that pop up in the= way people organize themselves to get work done. As a broad generalization= we can try to get rid of the dysfunction by finding a better way and selli= ng it, or we can meet the organizations we encounter where they are and whi= ttle away at the dysfunction one behavior at a time.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D= "auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">When I read Robin's post I'm rem= inded of the times we've tried to bring XP into an organization whose d= evelopers understood it well and were clear about not wanting it. One of th= e big problems I've encountered while fighting dysfunction is that dysf= unction is not the same as non-function. Dysfunctional systems work. They j= ust work in a way that is unpleasant or otherwise sub-optimal (usually by i= ndirectly fulfilling needs that someone feels shame about). If you try to f= ix the dysfunction without fulfilling the unstated need the system will sta= rt pushing your changes right back out.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></= div><div dir=3D"auto">James is right to be suspicious of any methodology th= at sells easily because transformative change is always uncomfortable (or e= lse you'd already be doing it) and discomfort doesn't sell.=C2=A0I = hear Robin making a different point, which is that we need to meet our team= s in the condition where we find them and understand that they may be optim= izing for different values than we are. James is warning us away from accep= ting superficial changes that don't address the underlying issues. Robi= n is saying that we shouldn't be so stuck on our own values that we los= e sight of what our customers are valuing. I think there's some common = ground to be found in recognizing the need to dig into the needs and belief= s that drive the behaviors of the teams we're leading in order to impro= ve the way they operate. When we do that we'll run into our own ideas a= bout what is optimal and often find that they are in conflict with the othe= r leadership around us. It's in the process of resolving those conflict= s that real improvements will come.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>= <div dir=3D"auto">And it's the process of resolution, not the resolutio= n itself, that brings about meaningful change. If the process unfolds in an= honest and vulnerable way the results will work if they are at all practic= al. If it doesn't no amount of formal structure will save the team from= itself.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr" cl= ass=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 6:34 PM Tim Ottinger via Groups.Io = <linux_tim=3D<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]<= /a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0= 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div> Aggro much?=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>I think that there is no reason that = people who aren=E2=80=99t pro-certification aren=E2=80=99t innovators in pl= enty of areas. Case in point: the original XP people.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t= think I=E2=80=99ve seen an XP certification, so there are no innovators th= ere? Do certifications cause innovation or prevent it?=C2=A0</div><div><br>= </div><div>Now, that said, none of us gets to choose who the innovators are= in the world. You can expect whatever you want, as long as you don=E2=80= =99t blame the world for not meeting your expectations.</div><div><br></di= v><div>J. Holmes is well respected for his teaching, thinking, writing. I d= on=E2=80=99t think we need to rag on him or his views here.=C2=A0</div><div= ><br></div><div><br><br><a href=3D"https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=3D= iOS" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad</a>= <br><br><p style=3D"font-size:15px;color:#715ffa;padding-top:15px;margin-to= p:0">On Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 19:03, R Dymond <<a href=3D"mailto:= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]= et</a>> wrote:</p><blockquote><div id=3D"m_-2442142798652467338yiv913126= 7126"><div><div><div>Great. So we will not expect any innovation from you. = That's OK. It took me a while to realize that Extreme Positions don'= ;t really do anything except reflect on me. Calling things broken doesn'= ;t fix it. Waiting for others to change means everything is out of my contr= ol, and that is handy if I want to criticize, and it absolves me of any res= ponsibility. These days I prefer to act, to have empathy, to recognize that= people have succeeded without many of the ideas we advocate. So we are not= "right," we have a different approach that we think is better. O= ur CUSTOMERS by in large do not agree that it is better.</div><div><br clea= r=3D"none"></div><div>Regards=C2=A0</div><div>Robin</div><div><div><br clea= r=3D"none"></div><div><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Dec 4, 2019, 5:44 PM <<a= rel=3D"nofollow noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:james.holmes@gma= il.com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br clear=3D= "none"></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so= lid;padding-left:1ex">I'm always fascinated by folks who look at the co= rrupt, burning garbage heap that is Scrum Certification and think, "I = want that, but for development practices."<br clear=3D"none"><br clear= = =3D"none">I'm increasingly of the opinion that XP remains useful preci= sely because it has not had the same popularity that Scrum has suffered. I&= #39;m likewise of the opinion that something that sells as well as Scrum in= a market full of broken management systems and toxic workplaces is to be v= iewed with extreme suspicion. <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div></div></div> </div></div></blockquote></div><blockquote></blockquote></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div></div></div> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160483">View/Reply Online (#160483)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= = =3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%20y= ou%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= =3DPrivate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20change= d%20for%20you%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/post">New Topic</a><br= > <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/editsub/2417047">Your Su= bscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner<= /a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/= xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --0000000000001d49b20599205aff--