Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"Steve Gordon" <[email protected]> Fri, 6 Dec 2019 20:57:24 -0700
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.extreme-programming |
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| Message-ID | <CAF7qo6XDKpWYu_13ooyrmkGQ+uXAyGkA9izjSmkhJRHC03URog@mail.gmail.com> |
--000000000000ad463c05991529bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" In the case of SAFe and LeSS, the product does really provide greater management control,. No matter how well you market XP or TDD, they do transfer more control from management to the "talent" and the decision makers see that clearly. On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 6:51 PM R Dymond <[email protected]> wrote: > Back to JB's (Hi JB!) original question: > > For me I think a lot has changed, some of which this question has pointed > out. > > I think things were a bit more simple in some respects in 2002-2003 > because I didn't have much experience with these ideas. > I also have become educated on the difficulty of changing minds and > organizations. > VHS vs Beta, Windows vs MacOS, and now SAFe vs LeSS. Better marketing and > weaker product tends to beat better product with weaker marketing. As an > engineer I think this sucks, but there have been far too many examples to > deny it, and it is independent of field or technology. It still sucks to be > on the losing side with the better ideas. > I am surprised at how fast cloud adoption is moving. Companies with 30 > year old tech stacks are investing hundreds of millions to get off the old > stuff and migrate to the cloud. This seems like a huge opportunity to > change *how* people code, so I think there should be a real sense of > urgency to grow TDD adoption. However we face the same dilemma: Does the > developer take limited time to learn TDD or Kubernetes? Do they learn TDD > or GO? One is recognized by employers and gets them a higher paying job and > one doesn't. > > Perhaps XP should be renamed Cloud Craft and the sponsor is the Cloud > Craft Guild. There ya go, only took an old fashioned and some wine to get > the name game going. > > Cheers, > Robin. > > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 3:26 PM Eb Alson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Teaching only goes so far. >> >> "You can only tell, if it is a request or a demand, by how I treat you, >> if you don't do it." Non-Violent Communication , Marshal B. Rosenberg >> >> You can teach all day but if you don't mandate then it's optional. The >> entire team could decide post-teaching they want to do it. Maybe. >> >> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 4:54 PM JeffGrigg <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> There's a lot to be said for teaching one's employees the skills and >>> knowledge you require them to have. And something to be said for hiring >>> people who have these skills, or are at least open to learning them. >>> >>> >>> And I *used to be* that good at pool -- only bank shots allowed. ;-> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 1:11 PM James Grenning <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Mandating TDD would be like mandating that all shots in pool be bank >>>> shots. Unless someone had the skill in bank shots, not many balks will be >>>> pocketed. >>>> >>>> TDD and bank shots require skill to execute. Skills take time to >>>> learn. >>>> >>>> Mandating test automation is a business decision, as the cost of manual >>>> retest is so high. There are skills to learn here too, though maybe less >>>> difficult to get started. >>>> >>>> James >>>> >>>> ... >>> >>>> >> >> -- >> blog: http://eikonne.wordpress.com >> LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne >> twitter: @eikonne >> >> > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#160482): https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/message/160482 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- --000000000000ad463c05991529bf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">In the case of SAFe and LeSS, the product= does=C2=A0really provide greater management control,.=C2=A0 No matter how = well you market XP or TDD, they do transfer more control from management to= the "talent" and the decision makers see that clearly.</div><br>= <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, De= c 6, 2019 at 6:51 PM R Dymond <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">rd= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"= style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p= adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Back to JB's (Hi JB!) original questi= on:<div><br></div><div>For me I think a lot has changed, some of which this= question has pointed out.</div><div><br></div><div>I think things were a b= it more simple in some respects in 2002-2003 because I didn't have much= experience with these ideas.</div><div>I also have become educated on the = difficulty of changing minds and organizations.</div><div> VHS vs Beta, Win= dows vs MacOS, and now=C2=A0SAFe vs LeSS. Better marketing and weaker produ= ct tends to beat better product with weaker marketing. As an engineer I thi= nk this sucks, but there have been far too many examples to deny it, and it= is independent of field or technology. It still sucks to be on the losing = side with the better ideas.</div><div>I am surprised at how fast cloud adop= tion is moving. Companies with 30 year old tech stacks are investing hundre= ds of millions to get off the old stuff and migrate to the cloud. This seem= s like a huge opportunity to change *how* people code, so I think there sho= uld be a real sense of urgency to grow TDD adoption. However we face the sa= me dilemma: Does the developer take limited time to learn TDD or Kubernetes= ? Do they learn TDD or GO? One is recognized by employers and gets them a h= igher paying job and one doesn't.</div><div><br></div><div>Perhaps XP s= hould be renamed Cloud Craft and the sponsor is the Cloud Craft Guild. Ther= e ya go, only took an old fashioned and some wine to get the name game goin= g.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Robin.</div><div><br></div><d= iv><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D= "gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 3:26 PM Eb Alson <<a href=3D"mailto:= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></di= v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde= r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>T= eaching only goes so far.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><div lang=3D"en" d= ir=3D"auto" style=3D"border:0px solid black;box-sizing:border-box;color:rgb= (20,23,26);display:inline;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asi= an:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:23px;line-height:1.3125;font-family= :system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Ubu= ntu,"Helvetica Neue",sans-serif;margin:0px;padding:0px 0px 15px;w= hite-space:pre-wrap;min-width:0px"><span style=3D"border:0px solid black;bo= x-sizing:border-box;color:inherit;display:inline;font-style:inherit;font-va= riant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;font-size:inherit;li= ne-height:1.3125;font-family:system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,&qu= ot;Segoe UI",Roboto,Ubuntu,"Helvetica Neue",sans-serif;margi= n:0px;padding:0px;white-space:inherit;min-width:0px">"You can only tel= l, if it is a request or a demand, by how I treat you, if you don't do = it." Non-Violent Communication , Marshal B. Rosenberg</span></div><div style=3D= "border:0px solid black;box-sizing:border-box;display:flex;margin:0px 0px 1= 5px;min-height:0px;min-width:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:T= imes;font-size:15px"><br></div><div style=3D"border:0px solid black;box-siz= ing:border-box;display:flex;margin:0px 0px 15px;min-height:0px;min-width:0p= x;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:15px">You can te= ach all day but if you don't mandate then it's optional. The entire= team could decide post-teaching they want to do it. Maybe.</div></div><br>= <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, De= c 6, 2019 at 4:54 PM JeffGrigg <<a href=3D"mailto:jeffreytoddgrigg@gmail= .com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div>= <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>The= re's a lot to be said for teaching one's employees the skills and k= nowledge you require them to have. And something to be said for hiring peop= le who have these skills, or are at least open to learning them.</div><div>= <br></div><div><br></div><div>And I <i>used to be</i> that good at pool -- = only bank shots allowed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0;-></div><div><br></div><br><div cl= ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 6, 20= 19 at 1:11 PM James Grenning <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" ta= rget=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl= ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid= rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div id=3D"gmail-m_3313611198390747320g= mail-m_-4790784743569355576gmail-m_-2152182896189032559gmail-m_-90598297860= 2257060edo-message"><div>Mandating TDD would be like mandating that all sho= ts in pool be bank shots.=C2=A0 Unless someone had the skill in bank shots,= = =C2=A0 not many balks will be pocketed.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>TDD= and bank shots require skill to execute.=C2=A0 Skills take time to learn.= =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Mandating test automation is a business de= cision, as the cost of manual retest is so high. There are skills to learn = here too, though maybe less difficult to get started.=C2=A0</div><div><br><= /div><div>James<div id=3D"gmail-m_3313611198390747320gmail-m_-4790784743569= 355576gmail-m_-2152182896189032559gmail-m_-905982978602257060edo-signature"= ></div></div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div>...</div><blockquote cl= ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid= rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><= div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>blog: <a href=3D"http://eikonne.= wordpress.com/" rel=3D"me nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://eikonne.wordpr= ess.com</a></div><div>LinkedIn: <a href=3D"http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-= ikonne" target=3D"_blank">http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne</a></div> <div>twitter: @eikonne</div></div></div></div></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div></div> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160482">View/Reply Online (#160482)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= = =3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%20y= ou%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DP= rivate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20f= or%20you%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/post">New Topic</a><br= > <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/editsub/2417047">Your Su= bscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner<= /a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/= xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --000000000000ad463c05991529bf--