Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"Slava Imeshev via Groups.Io" <[email protected]> Mon, 9 Dec 2019 21:26:49 -0800
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--Apple-Mail=_9E69798C-5F23-4C0A-8F9B-3C2B8F358691 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Yes! I often ask to write Integer.toString(int) during interviews, starting= with a test. Usually, the responses are: * Huh? * Hmm... * That=E2=80=99s easy! Slava > On Dec 7, 2019, at 11:25 PM, Avi Kessner <[email protected]> wrote: >=20 > I had an idea the other night. It's both really silly but also maybe goo= d, and mybe it's been tried before. >=20 > I was thinking about the principles of TDD and how it fits into XP in ge= neral. >=20 > What if before committing to the practices, a developer had a way of gai= ning feedback that they are capable of implementing the practices. I.e. a t= est, a self assessment test. >=20 > Take this test, and if you score well, you can have confirmation/confide= nce that you can engage in X practice safely. >=20 > On Sun, Dec 8, 2019, 05:58 Larry Brunelle <[email protected] <mailto:bru= [email protected]>> wrote: >=20 > Thanks for an interesting and enlightening parsing and distilling of > wisdom found in some posts by others. Humans (often regrettably) are > motivated, and behave, well, like humans, and failure to recognize > the same can get us bit pretty good. >=20 > Phil Goodwin wrote: > > Sometimes it pays to not fight fire with fire. Things that are not wel= l said are perhaps still worth saying. > >=20 > > I think there's an interesting tension here. At the root are the patte= rns of dysfunction that pop up in the way people organize themselves to get= work done. As a broad generalization we can try to get rid of the dysfunct= ion by finding a better way and selling it, or we can meet the organization= s we encounter where they are and whittle away at the dysfunction one behav= ior at a time. > >=20 > > When I read Robin's post I'm reminded of the times we've tried to brin= g XP into an organization whose developers understood it well and were clea= r about not wanting it. One of the big problems I've encountered while figh= ting dysfunction is that dysfunction is not the same as non-function. Dysfu= nctional systems work. They just work in a way that is unpleasant or otherw= ise sub-optimal (usually by indirectly fulfilling needs that someone feels = shame about). If you try to fix the dysfunction without fulfilling the unst= ated need the system will start pushing your changes right back out. > >=20 > > James is right to be suspicious of any methodology that sells easily b= ecause transformative change is always uncomfortable (or else you'd already= be doing it) and discomfort doesn't sell. I hear Robin making a different = point, which is that we need to meet our teams in the condition where we fi= nd them and understand that they may be optimizing for different values tha= n we are. James is warning us away from accepting superficial changes that = don't address the underlying issues. Robin is saying that we shouldn't be s= o stuck on our own values that we lose sight of what our customers are valu= ing. I think there's some common ground to be found in recognizing the need= to dig into the needs and beliefs that drive the behaviors of the teams we= 're leading in order to improve the way they operate. When we do that we'll= run into our own ideas about what is optimal and often find that they are = in conflict with the other leadership around us. It's in the process of res= olving those=20 > > conflicts that real improvements will come. > >=20 > > And it's the process of resolution, not the resolution itself, that br= ings about meaningful change. If the process unfolds in an honest and vulne= rable way the results will work if they are at all practical. If it doesn't= no amount of formal structure will save the team from itself. > >=20 > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 6:34 PM Tim Ottinger via Groups.Io <linux_tim=3Dy= [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]= <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: > >=20 > > Aggro much? > >=20 > > I think that there is no reason that people who aren=E2=80=99t pro= -certification aren=E2=80=99t innovators in plenty of areas. Case in point:= the original XP people. I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99ve seen an XP cer= tification, so there are no innovators there? Do certifications cause innov= ation or prevent it? > >=20 > > Now, that said, none of us gets to choose who the innovators are i= n the world. You can expect whatever you want, as long as you don=E2=80=99t= blame the world for not meeting your expectations. > >=20 > > J. Holmes is well respected for his teaching, thinking, writing. I= don=E2=80=99t think we need to rag on him or his views here. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.s= rc=3DiOS <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=3DiOS>> > >=20 > > On Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 19:03, R Dymond <[email protected]= et <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:rdymond= @innovel.net>>> wrote: > >=20 > > Great. So we will not expect any innovation from you. That's O= K. It took me a while to realize that Extreme Positions don't really do any= thing except reflect on me. Calling things broken doesn't fix it. Waiting f= or others to change means everything is out of my control, and that is hand= y if I want to criticize, and it absolves me of any responsibility. These d= ays I prefer to act, to have empathy, to recognize that people have succeed= ed without many of the ideas we advocate. So we are not "right," we have a = different approach that we think is better. Our CUSTOMERS by in large do no= t agree that it is better. > >=20 > > Regards > > Robin > >=20 > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2019, 5:44 PM <[email protected] <mailto:j= [email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:james.holmes@= gmail.com>>> wrote: > >=20 > > I'm always fascinated by folks who look at the corrupt, bu= rning garbage heap that is Scrum Certification and think, "I want that, but= for development practices." > >=20 > > I'm increasingly of the opinion that XP remains useful pre= cisely because it has not had the same popularity that Scrum has suffered. = I'm likewise of the opinion that something that sells as well as Scrum in a= market full of broken management systems and toxic workplaces is to be vie= wed with extreme suspicion. > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#160488): https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160488 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/61983806= 5/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- --Apple-Mail=_9E69798C-5F23-4C0A-8F9B-3C2B8F358691 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset= =3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: = space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Yes! I often ask = to write Integer.toString(int) during interviews, starting with a test. Usu= ally, the responses are:<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"= ">* Huh?</div><div class=3D"">* Hmm...</div><div class=3D"">* That=E2=80=99= s easy!<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">= Slava</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" cl= ass=3D""><div class=3D"">On Dec 7, 2019, at 11:25 PM, Avi Kessner <<a hr= ef=3D"mailto:[email protected]" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrot= e:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D= "auto" class=3D"">I had an idea the other night. It's both really silly but= also maybe good, and mybe it's been tried before.<div dir=3D"auto" class= =3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">I was thinking abo= ut the principles of TDD and how it fits into XP in general.</div><div dir= =3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">Wha= t if before committing to the practices, a developer had a way of gaining f= eedback that they are capable of implementing the practices. I.e. a test, a= self assessment test.</div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""></d= iv><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">Take this test, and if you score well, you = can have confirmation/confidence that you can engage in X practice safely.<= /div></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class= = =3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Dec 8, 2019, 05:58 Larry Brunelle <<a href=3D"m= ailto:[email protected]" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br cla= ss=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;= border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br class=3D""> Thanks for an interesting and enlightening parsing and distilling of<br cl= ass=3D""> wisdom found in some posts by others. Humans (often regrettably) are= <br class=3D""> motivated, and behave, well, like humans, and failure to recognize<br clas= s=3D""> the same can get us bit pretty good.<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> Phil Goodwin wrote:<br class=3D""> > Sometimes it pays to not fight fire with fire. Things that are not we= ll said are perhaps still worth saying.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > I think there's an interesting tension here. At the root are the patt= erns of dysfunction that pop up in the way people organize themselves to ge= t work done. As a broad generalization we can try to get rid of the dysfunc= tion by finding a better way and selling it, or we can meet the organizatio= ns we encounter where they are and whittle away at the dysfunction one beha= vior at a time.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > When I read Robin's post I'm reminded of the times we've tried to bri= ng XP into an organization whose developers understood it well and were cle= ar about not wanting it. One of the big problems I've encountered while fig= hting dysfunction is that dysfunction is not the same as non-function. Dysf= unctional systems work. They just work in a way that is unpleasant or other= wise sub-optimal (usually by indirectly fulfilling needs that someone feels= shame about). If you try to fix the dysfunction without fulfilling the uns= tated need the system will start pushing your changes right back out.<br cl= ass=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > James is right to be suspicious of any methodology that sells easily = because transformative change is always uncomfortable (or else you'd alread= y be doing it) and discomfort doesn't sell. I hear Robin making a diff= erent point, which is that we need to meet our teams in the condition where= we find them and understand that they may be optimizing for different valu= es than we are. James is warning us away from accepting superficial changes= that don't address the underlying issues. Robin is saying that we shouldn'= t be so stuck on our own values that we lose sight of what our customers ar= e valuing. I think there's some common ground to be found in recognizing th= e need to dig into the needs and beliefs that drive the behaviors of the te= ams we're leading in order to improve the way they operate. When we do that= we'll run into our own ideas about what is optimal and often find that the= y are in conflict with the other leadership around us. It's in the process = of resolving those <br class=3D""> > conflicts that real improvements will come.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > And it's the process of resolution, not the resolution itself, that b= rings about meaningful change. If the process unfolds in an honest and vuln= erable way the results will work if they are at all practical. If it doesn'= t no amount of formal structure will save the team from itself.<br class=3D= ""> > <br class=3D""> > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 6:34 PM Tim Ottinger via Groups.Io <linux_tim= = =3D<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefer= rer" class=3D"">[email protected]</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:yahoo.= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"">yahoo.com@gr= oups.io</a>>> wrote:<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > Aggro much?<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > I think that there is no reason that people who ar= en=E2=80=99t pro-certification aren=E2=80=99t innovators in plenty of areas= . Case in point: the original XP people. I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2= =80=99ve seen an XP certification, so there are no innovators there? Do ce= rtifications cause innovation or prevent it?<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > Now, that said, none of us gets to choose who the = innovators are in the world. You can expect whatever you want, as long as y= ou don=E2=80=99t blame the world for not meeting your expectations.<br clas= s=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > J. Holmes is well respected for his teaching, thin= king, writing. I don=E2=80=99t think we need to rag on him or his views her= e.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad <<a href=3D"https= ://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=3DiOS" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" targe= t=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=3DiOS</a>>= <br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > On Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 19:03, R Dymond &l= t;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferre= r" class=3D"">[email protected]</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rdymond@= innovel.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"">rdymond@innove= l.net</a>>> wrote:<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > Great. So we will not expect any inn= ovation from you. That's OK. It took me a while to realize that Extreme Pos= itions don't really do anything except reflect on me. Calling things broken= doesn't fix it. Waiting for others to change means everything is out of my= control, and that is handy if I want to criticize, and it absolves me of a= ny responsibility. These days I prefer to act, to have empathy, to recogniz= e that people have succeeded without many of the ideas we advocate. So we a= re not "right," we have a different approach that we think is better. Our C= USTOMERS by in large do not agree that it is better.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > Regards<br class=3D""> > Robin<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > On Wed, Dec 4, 2019, 5:44 PM <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"= class=3D"">[email protected]</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:james.h= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"">james.holm= [email protected]</a>>> wrote:<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > I'm always fascinated = by folks who look at the corrupt, burning garbage heap that is Scrum Certif= ication and think, "I want that, but for development practices."<br class= =3D""> > <br class=3D""> > I'm increasingly of th= e opinion that XP remains useful precisely because it has not had the same = popularity that Scrum has suffered. I'm likewise of the opinion that someth= ing that sells as well as Scrum in a market full of broken management syste= ms and toxic workplaces is to be viewed with extreme suspicion.<br class=3D= ""> > <br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> </blockquote></div> </div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160488">View/Reply Online (#160488)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= = =3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%20y= ou%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DPriv= ate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%= 20you%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/post">New Topic</a><br= > <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/editsub/2417047">Your Su= bscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner<= /a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/= xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --Apple-Mail=_9E69798C-5F23-4C0A-8F9B-3C2B8F358691--