Re: L7 packet inspection

Kenneth Salchow <[email protected]> Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:53:55 -0800
Newsgroups gmane.comp.programming.load-balancing.general
Message-ID <4B18A8F75A6384449755BC7784073E9360EECB48DF@exch11.olympus.f5net.com> 
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Ali Said:

"A WAF on the order hand is often just a plugin of the AF. I know... I know,
some cheap brands out there advertize WAF as standalone appliance, but the
WAF is simple an AF with a filter."

 

I understand what your are trying to say, that a WAF is a specialized
component on-top of a generic application-layer (L7) device-but I don't
really agree with your treatment here as simply a "filter".

 

By its very nature, any application firewall MUST have specialized
capability at EACH application.  A generic device that simply enforces
protocol RFC isn't really an "application" firewall, it's a protocol
enforcement firewall.  Surely, for ease of example, a web request can be
completely RFC compliant and still be an attack on the specific application.
The capability to determine-on an application-by-application basis-whether
that transaction is an attack or not is a little more sophisticated than a
simple filter. This is particularly useful with web-services calls which,
while using standard HTTP as a transport have application specific
functionality within them that require a little more flexibility and
intelligence.

 

Thanks,

 


KJ (Ken) Salchow, Jr. | Manager, Technical Marketing


D 651.423.1133

M 612.868.1258

P 206.272.5555

F 206.272.5555

 <http://www.f5.com/> www.f5.com

 

 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Ali Abbas
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 2:47 PM
To: Load Balancing Mailing List
Subject: Re: [load balancing] L7 packet inspection

 

Hi Surya,

I appreciate your attempt to give a short intro to Layer 7 Inspection, but I
fear, some of your statements could be a bit miss-leading. Just for the sake
of clarification ;-)



Multiprotocol DPI (Deep Packet Inspection) : this is what you find in your
ACE, cisco ASA or any good network firewall. it works on multiple protocols
(FTP, SIP, DNS, RTSP, FTP...) and avoids protocol misuse and RFC compliance.


DPI is protocol independant... the type of payload you wishes to filter or
mine will only be a specification of the ability of the DPI engine running
on the network device.
 

	


This is "basic" L7 inspection and filtering but the strength is that it's
usually performed in hardware and it supports a lot of protocols (in ACE
it's performed by NPs and not the control plane I guess)


Right, also I personally would not see how inspection would take place in
the control plane. We are not concerned about routing/forwaring primarely
here, so that's exclusively surely not the case . For your information, all
inline packet inspections (dpi/stateful etc...) only take place on the NPs.



Then you have "application firewalls" (or Web App FW). These are dedicated
features or appliances working only on HTTP(S) - and mainly on Web-based
applications, this is not relevant to XML web services - to avoid most of
"Web attacks".


First of all, they are 2 things, an Application Firewall and a WAF (Web
Application Firewall). One is often just the appliance (the core), that is
to say, a firewall being able to work with the application layer of the
TCP/IP stack... in order words, a layer 7 firewall. So the AF would work
with any applications, not only restricted to http/https.

A WAF on the order hand is often just a plugin of the AF. I know... I know,
some cheap brands out there advertize WAF as standalone appliance, but the
WAF is simple an AF with a filter.

just though I should clarify those points.

--
Ali Abbas
Blog: http://alouche.net


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Ali Said:<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&#8220;</span>A WAF on =
the
order hand is often just a plugin of the AF. I know... I know, some =
cheap
brands out there advertize WAF as standalone appliance, but the WAF is =
simple
an AF with a filter.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I understand what your are trying to say, that a WAF is a
specialized component on-top of a generic application-layer (L7) =
device&#8212;but
I don&#8217;t really agree with your treatment here as simply a =
&#8220;filter&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>By its very nature, any application firewall MUST have =
specialized
capability at EACH application.&nbsp; A generic device that simply =
enforces
protocol RFC isn&#8217;t really an &#8220;application&#8221; firewall, =
it&#8217;s
a protocol enforcement firewall.&nbsp; Surely, for ease of example, a =
web
request can be completely RFC compliant and still be an attack on the =
specific
application. &nbsp;The capability to determine&#8212;on an
application-by-application basis&#8212;whether that transaction is an =
attack or
not is a little more sophisticated than a simple filter. This is =
particularly
useful with web-services calls which, while using standard HTTP as a =
transport
have application specific functionality within them that require a =
little more
flexibility and intelligence.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D425 =
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 <tr>
  <td colspan=3D5 style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
  color:#1F497D'>KJ (Ken) Salchow, Jr.</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
  font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> | Manager, Technical
  Marketing</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr style=3D'height:9.0pt'>
  <td width=3D84 style=3D'width:63.0pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt =
.75pt;height:9.0pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
  line-height:9.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
  color:#333333'>D 651.423.1133</span></b><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D84 style=3D'width:63.0pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt =
.75pt;height:9.0pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'line-height:9.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;
  font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'>M =
612.868.1258</span></b><span
  =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D84 style=3D'width:63.0pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt =
.75pt;height:9.0pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'line-height:9.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;
  font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'>P =
206.272.5555</span></b><span
  =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D84 style=3D'width:63.0pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt =
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  <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'line-height:9.0pt'><b><span =
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  font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'>F =
206.272.5555</span></b><span
  =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
  </td>
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.75pt;height:
  9.0pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'line-height:9.0pt'><b><span =
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  font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'><a =
href=3D"http://www.f5.com/"><span
  style=3D'color:#333333'>www.f5.com</span></a></span></b><span =
style=3D'font-family:
  "Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ali Abbas<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 30, 2010 2:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Load Balancing Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [load balancing] L7 packet =
inspection<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'>Hi Surya,<br>
<br>
I appreciate your attempt to give a short intro to Layer 7 Inspection, =
but I
fear, some of your statements could be a bit miss-leading. Just for the =
sake of
clarification ;-)<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>

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 style=3D'width:463.2pt;margin-left:.5in'>
 <tr>
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0in;font-style:inherit;font-variant:
  =
inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-si=
ze-adjust: inherit;
  font-stretch: inherit'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"inherit","serif"'><br>
  <b><i>Multiprotocol DPI (Deep Packet Inspection) : this is what you =
find in
  your ACE, cisco ASA or any good network firewall. it works on multiple
  protocols (FTP, SIP, DNS, RTSP, FTP...) and avoids protocol misuse and =
RFC
  compliance.</i></b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><br>
DPI is protocol independant... the type of payload you wishes to filter =
or mine
will only be a specification of the ability of the DPI engine running on =
the
network device.<br>
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>

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 style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>
 <tr>
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0in;font-style:inherit;font-variant:
  =
inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-si=
ze-adjust: inherit;
  font-stretch: inherit'></td>
 </tr>
</table>

</blockquote>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0
 style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>
 <tr>
  <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-family:
  "inherit","serif"'>This is &quot;basic&quot; L7 inspection and =
filtering but
  the strength is that it's usually performed in hardware and it =
supports a lot
  of protocols (in ACE it's performed by NPs and not the control plane I =
guess)</span></i></b><span
  style=3D'font-family:"inherit","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><br>
Right, also I personally would not see how inspection would take place =
in the
control plane. We are not concerned about routing/forwaring primarely =
here, so
that's exclusively surely not the case . For your information, all =
inline
packet inspections (dpi/stateful etc...) only take place on the =
NPs.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D618
 style=3D'width:463.2pt;margin-left:.5in'>
 <tr>
  <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in =
0in;font-style:inherit;font-variant:
  =
inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-si=
ze-adjust: inherit;
  font-stretch: inherit'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"inherit","serif"'><br>
  <b><i>Then you have &quot;application firewalls&quot; (or Web App FW). =
These
  are dedicated features or appliances working only on HTTP(S) - and =
mainly on
  Web-based applications, this is not relevant to XML web services - to =
avoid
  most of &quot;Web attacks&quot;.</i></b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><br>
First of all, they are 2 things, an Application Firewall and a WAF (Web
Application Firewall). One is often just the appliance (the core), that =
is to
say, a firewall being able to work with the application layer of the =
TCP/IP
stack... in order words, a layer 7 firewall. So the AF would work with =
any
applications, not only restricted to http/https.<br>
<br>
A WAF on the order hand is often just a plugin of the AF. I know... I =
know,
some cheap brands out there advertize WAF as standalone appliance, but =
the WAF
is simple an AF with a filter.<br>
<br>
just though I should clarify those points.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Ali Abbas<br>
Blog: <a =
href=3D"http://alouche.net">http://alouche.net</a><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

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