Re: What is agile?
"Michael Wollin [email protected] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]" <[email protected]> Wed, 2 May 2018 18:12:43 -0700
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.scrum.general |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--Apple-Mail=_3E1203CB-AE09-4F1F-ACE8-7A0ADB6E8420 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Fair enough, Dave. This was not to replace the Manifesto or for training in= any way. This was to explain to professional friends what we are doing, in= simple business terms. It=E2=80=99s my distillation. As a distillation, it= =E2=80=99s a lossy compression algorithm. But I thought it communicated the= nature of the domain in a way that many professionals I know can easily gr= asp. I=E2=80=99m not sure, though, that I agree with you that the implicati= ons of the Manifesto are obvious. If that were true, the glaring delta betw= een the manifesto and what most companies are really doing wrote be a whole= lot more apparent to them. IMO. I like the phrasing you have of =E2=80=9Cw= orking software to interact with,=E2=80=9D and I may incorporate that. It i= s still people collaborating to discover what the product wants to be.=20 > On May 2, 2018, at 9:15 AM, [email protected] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] <SC= [email protected]> wrote: >=20 > I'm struggling to see value in this definition beyond the content contain= ed in the two pages on Agile Manifesto website. I had to go back and look = at it, which I recommend that everyone do from time to time, and it really = does seem complete and clear even after all of these years.=20=20 >=20 >=20 > Items that aren't included on the Manifesto site, like "creating cross-fu= nctional teams", aren't really part of Agile, IMHO. This one in particula= r seems like a bit of a pipe dream, really. People aren't fungible resourc= es and shouldn't be organized like they are. And, surely the principle tha= t, "The best architectures, requirements, and designs emerge from self-orga= nizing teams.", would win out if the team decided that it wanted to work in= a very siloed manner? >=20 >=20 > I'm not trying to be hyper-critical, but one of the big issues we have in= the Agile/Scrum world seems be competing definitions about fundamental con= cepts. Here we have 4 main clauses in the Manifesto, and 12 underlying pri= nciples. It's short, simple and the implications are fairly obvious. >=20 > If there was one explanatory item that I'd ever feel was needed it would = be this: Users never really fully engage in the software design process un= til you give them working software to interact with. Requirements, white-b= oard diagrams, meetings, demos, mock-ups, prototypes or any other aid you c= an try will not elicit the input that you need from the customer to build t= he right software. The only defense against this is write a minimal amount= of working software and get it into the customers hands as soon as possibl= e, then listen to what they say. >=20 > It's clear to me that the authors of the manifesto completely understood= this. The first 4 principles are all about making that happen. >=20 > dave >=20 > \ --Apple-Mail=_3E1203CB-AE09-4F1F-ACE8-7A0ADB6E8420 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <head> <style type=3D"text/css"> <!-- /* start of attachment style */ .ygrp-photo-title{ clear: both; font-size: smaller; height: 15px; overflow: hidden; text-align: center; width: 75px; } div.ygrp-photo{ background-position: center; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-color: white; border: 1px solid black; height: 62px; width: 62px; } div.photo-title=20 a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited { text-decoration: none;=20 } div.attach-table div.attach-row { clear: both; } div.attach-table div.attach-row div { float: left; /* margin: 2px;*/ } p { clear: both; padding: 15px 0 3px 0; overflow: hidden; } div.ygrp-file { width: 30px; valign: middle; } div.attach-table div.attach-row div div a { text-decoration: none; } div.attach-table div.attach-row div div span { font-weight: normal; } div.ygrp-file-title { font-weight: bold; } /* end of attachment style */ --> </style> </head> <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset= =3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s= pace; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <br><br> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> Fair enough, Dave. This was not to replace the Manifesto or for traini= ng in any way. This was to explain to professional friends what we are doin= g, in simple business terms. It=E2=80=99s my distillation. As a distillatio= n, it=E2=80=99s a lossy compression algorithm. But I thought it communicate= d the nature of the domain in a way that many professionals I know can easi= ly grasp. I=E2=80=99m not sure, though, that I agree with you that the impl= ications of the Manifesto are obvious. If that were true, the glaring delta= between the manifesto and what most companies are really doing wrote be a = whole lot more apparent to them. IMO. I like the phrasing you have of =E2= =80=9Cworking software to interact with,=E2=80=9D and I may incorporate tha= t. It is still people collaborating to discover what the product wants to b= e. <div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type= =3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On May 2, 2018, at 9:15 AM, <a href=3D= "mailto:[email protected]" class=3D"">[email protected]</a> [SCRU= MDEVELOPMENT] <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" class= =3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br class=3D"App= le-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"fon= t-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; caret-color= : rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:= normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-= transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-strok= e-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; position: relative;" class=3D""><div i= d=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"line-height: 1.22em; z-index: 1;" class=3D""><div i= d=3D"ygrp-text" style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height:= 1.22em; font-family: Georgia;" class=3D""><p style=3D"line-height: 1.22em;= margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class=3D"">I'm struggling to see value in this defin= ition beyond the content contained in the two pages on Agile Manifesto webs= ite. I had to go back and look at it, which I recommend that everyone= do from time to time, and it really does seem complete and clear even afte= r all of these years. <span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </sp= an></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" class= =3D""><div class=3D""><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"font-size: 13px; font= -family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); fo= nt-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-sp= acing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; w= hite-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text= -decoration: none; position: relative;" class=3D""><div id=3D"ygrp-msg" sty= le=3D"line-height: 1.22em; z-index: 1;" class=3D""><div id=3D"ygrp-text" st= yle=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: 1.22em; font-fami= ly: Georgia;" class=3D""><p style=3D"line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1= em;" class=3D""><br style=3D"line-height: 1.22em;" class=3D"">Items that ar= en't included on the Manifesto site, like "creating cross-functional teams"= , aren't really part of Agile, IMHO. This one in particular seems li= ke a bit of a pipe dream, really. People aren't fungible resources an= d shouldn't be organized like they are. And, surely the principle tha= t, "The best architectures, requirements, and designs emerge from self-orga= nizing teams.", would win out if the team decided that it wanted to work in= a very siloed manner?<br style=3D"line-height: 1.22em;" class=3D""></p></d= iv></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div= class=3D""><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"font-size: 13px; font-family: A= rial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: = normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: nor= mal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space= : normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoratio= n: none; position: relative;" class=3D""><div id=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"line= -height: 1.22em; z-index: 1;" class=3D""><div id=3D"ygrp-text" style=3D"bac= kground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Georgi= a;" class=3D""><p style=3D"line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class= =3D""><br style=3D"line-height: 1.22em;" class=3D"">I'm not trying to be hy= per-critical, but one of the big issues we have in the Agile/Scrum world se= ems be competing definitions about fundamental concepts. Here we have= 4 main clauses in the Manifesto, and 12 underlying principles. It's = short, simple and the implications are fairly obvious.<br style=3D"line-hei= ght: 1.22em;" class=3D""><br style=3D"line-height: 1.22em;" class=3D"">If t= here was one explanatory item that I'd ever feel was needed it would be thi= s: Users never really fully engage in the software design process unt= il you give them working software to interact with. Requirements, whi= te-board diagrams, meetings, demos, mock-ups, prototypes or any other aid y= ou can try will not elicit the input that you need from the customer to bui= ld the right software. The only defense against this is write a minim= al amount of working software and get it into the customers hands as soon a= s possible, then listen to what they say.<br style=3D"line-height: 1.22em;"= class=3D""><br style=3D"line-height: 1.22em;" class=3D"">It's clear to me = that the authors of the manifesto completely understood this. T= he first 4 principles are all about making that happen.<br style=3D"line-he= ight: 1.22em;" class=3D""><br style=3D"line-height: 1.22em;" class=3D"">dav= e</p></div><div style=3D"line-height: 1.22em; height: 0px;" class=3D""><spa= n style=3D"color: rgb(255, 255, 255); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);= " class=3D""></span><font color=3D"#e3e3e3" class=3D""><span style=3D"backg= round-color: rgb(227, 227, 227);" class=3D"">\</span></font></div><div styl= e=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: 1.22em; clear: both= ;" class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></d= iv> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <br> <br> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color: white; clear: both;"/>__._,_.___</div> =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20 =20=20=20=20 <div id=3D"fromDMARC" style=3D"clear:both; margin-top: 10px;"> <hr style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; backgroun= d-color:#E3E3E3;"> Posted by: Michael Wollin <[email protected]> <hr = style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3= E3;"> </div> <!-- Start Recommendations --> <!-- End Recommendations --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <br><br> <tt> To Post a message, send it to: [email protected]<BR> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: SCRUMDEVELOPMENT-unsubscribe@eGrou= ps.com</tt> <br><br> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <img src=3D"http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=3D97476590/grpId=3D1569064/grpspI= d=3D1705007709/msgId=3D58820/stime=3D1525309967" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"> = <br> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> =20=20=20=20 <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <br> =20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20 =20 <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id=3D"ygrp-vital" style=3D"background-color: #f2f2f2; font-fam= ily: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id=3D"vithd" style=3D"font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-tr= ansform: uppercase; "><a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SCRUMD= EVELOPMENT/info;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJlZWg5MzUyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE1NjkwNjQE= Z3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTUyNTMwOTk2Nw--" s= tyle=3D"text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a></span> <ul style=3D"list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: in= line;"> <li style=3D"border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; di= splay: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class=3D"cat"><a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SC= RUMDEVELOPMENT/members/all;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJmbDFpNHJvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkA= zE1NjkwNjQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzE1MjUz= MDk5Njc-" style=3D"text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class=3D"ct" style=3D"color: #ff7900;">1</span> </li> </ul> </div> <div id=3D"ft" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5p= x; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJkOG9qMm4zBF9TAzk3ND= c2NTkwBGdycElkAzE1NjkwNjQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzd= GltZQMxNTI1MzA5OTY3" style=3D"float: left;"><img src=3D"http://l.yimg.com/r= u/static/images/yg/img/email/new_logo/logo-groups-137x15.png" height=3D"15"= width=3D"137" alt=3D"Yahoo! 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