RE: What is agile? [1 Attachment]
"Steve Ropa [email protected] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]" <[email protected]> Thu, 3 May 2018 08:39:26 -0600
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.scrum.general |
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--_A06BEFFA-F37C-4CBF-9363-BCB69CFEFCEF_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" This is what I don=E2=80=99t get. If we had all that before, why did anyon= e say =E2=80=9Csomething needs to change=E2=80=9D? And so many people said= it that we ended up with the Agile movement. From my recollection of thos= e days, we didn=E2=80=99t have all that before. We had pockets of things t= hat seemed to work, but on the whole we were floundering as an industry. E= very Agile leader I=E2=80=99ve talked to has agreed that the individual pra= ctices might not be brand spanking new(at the time) but the usage and appro= ach is absolutely unique and revolutionary. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: 'Alexander Kriegisch' [email protected] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2018 7:46 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] What is agile? =C2=A0=20 Hi Rafael. I am actually tired of hearing or reading this "oh, all that agile stuff was there before Agile". Yes, it was there, but a) nobody did it consequently in the combination that comprises Agile (not even the practices, not to mention principles and values underneath) and b) it is still not done by many organisations today which claim to be agile. Oh, and BTW: You cannot "do Agile", only be agile. Disclaimer: I do understand that you embrace the Agile Manifesto in its full beauty, so this is not to say that I think you don't "get it". I am just saying I am tired of this line of rationale. ;-) Kind regards --=20 Alexander Kriegisch https://scrum-master.de [email protected] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] schrieb am 03.05.2018 19:58: >=20 >=20 > Hi everyone, >=20 >=20 > Firstly, I have to say that we see a lot of trivialisation regarding this > matter. It seems like everything that is good fall into the "Agile-box" > and what is not good in the "traditional-waterfall-box". At least here in > Brazil. >=20 >=20 > When we ask people what Agile is, we usually get answers around > "adaptative", "easy to change", "small feedback loops", "fit to purpose", > "collaboration", "understand the customer" and some others more passionat= e > ones. But all of these properties was already there before Agile was born= .. >=20 >=20 > So, I was wondering how a scientist would measure whether Agile is been > effective. How to set the boundaries and not fall into ambiguity or in > particular perceptions. >=20 >=20 > Then I sketched out a particular understanding about what Agile is, and > what makes Agile unique, for me, is the sum of those properties, that is > represented on the manifesto. So, Agile would be to seek the Agile > manifesto values and principles. And that could be measure against action= s > toward this goal. What bring us to consider that might also exist levels > of intensity using and seeking Agile. >=20 >=20 > If Agile is to adapt to customers, we already had that before. If it is t= o > deliver value or respond to change, also. But if the context is seeking > actively to address all the 4 values of the manifesto, using particular > practices and techniques, that is a different approach that we can call > Agile. >=20 >=20 > I recognize, though, that is easier to say that someone or some company i= s > doing Agile, even if they don't follow what I said before. And I have no > problems with that. The Agile movement spread some good practices and mad= e > them popular and took the credit. That is apparently doing good to the > practicioners. >=20 >=20 > *** >=20 >=20 > Another concern that arises from this rational is whether any context > could be Agile. And the way I see, it couldn't. Applying Agile to some > deterministic nature works might result in waste. The contexts that > benefits from experimentation, that ones, would be eligible to be and use > Agile. >=20 >=20 > Bests, >=20 > Rafael Buzon >=20 >=20 > ---In [email protected], <yahoo@...> wrote : >=20 >=20 > Fair enough, Dave. This was not to replace the Manifesto or for training > in any way. This was to explain to professional friends what we are doing= , > in simple business terms. It=E2=80=99s my distillation. As a distillation= , it=E2=80=99s a > lossy compression algorithm. But I thought it communicated the nature of > the domain in a way that many professionals I know can easily grasp. I=E2= =80=99m > not sure, though, that I agree with you that the implications of the > Manifesto are obvious. If that were true, the glaring delta between the > manifesto and what most companies are really doing wrote be a whole lot > more apparent to them. IMO. I like the phrasing you have of =E2=80=9Cwork= ing > software to interact with,=E2=80=9D and I may incorporate that. It is sti= ll people > collaborating to discover what the product wants to be. >=20 >=20 >>> On May 2, 2018, at 9:15 AM, dave.barrett@... >>> <mailto:dave.barrett@...> [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] >>> <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I'm struggling to see value in this definition beyond the content >>> contained in the two pages on Agile Manifesto website. I had to go back >>> and look at it, which I recommend that everyone do from time to time, >>> and it really does seem complete and clear even after all of these >>> years. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Items that aren't included on the Manifesto site, like "creating >>> cross-functional teams", aren't really part of Agile, IMHO. This one in >>> particular seems like a bit of a pipe dream, really. People aren't >>> fungible resources and shouldn't be organized like they are. And, surel= y >>> the principle that, "The best architectures, requirements, and designs >>> emerge from self-organizing teams.", would win out if the team decided >>> that it wanted to work in a very siloed manner? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I'm not trying to be hyper-critical, but one of the big issues we have >>> in the Agile/Scrum world seems be competing definitions about >>> fundamental concepts. Here we have 4 main clauses in the Manifesto, and >>> 12 underlying principles. It's short, simple and the implications are >>> fairly obvious. >>>=20 >>> If there was one explanatory item that I'd ever feel was needed it woul= d >>> be this: Users never really fully engage in the software design process >>> until you give them working software to interact with. Requirements, >>> white-board diagrams, meetings, demos, mock-ups, prototypes or any othe= r >>> aid you can try will not elicit the input that you need from the >>> customer to build the right software. The only defense against this is >>> write a minimal amount of working software and get it into the customer= s >>> hands as soon as possible, then listen to what they say. >>>=20 >>> It's clear to me that the authors of the manifesto completely understoo= d >>> this. The first 4 principles are all about making that happen. >>>=20 >>> dave >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> \ >>>=20 >>>=20 >=20 > --_A06BEFFA-F37C-4CBF-9363-BCB69CFEFCEF_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <head> <style type=3D"text/css"> <!-- /* start of attachment style */ .ygrp-photo-title{ clear: both; font-size: smaller; height: 15px; overflow: hidden; text-align: center; width: 75px; } div.ygrp-photo{ background-position: center; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-color: white; border: 1px solid black; height: 62px; width: 62px; } div.photo-title=20 a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited { text-decoration: none;=20 } div.attach-table div.attach-row { clear: both; } div.attach-table div.attach-row div { float: left; /* margin: 2px;*/ } p { clear: both; padding: 15px 0 3px 0; overflow: hidden; } div.ygrp-file { width: 30px; valign: middle; } div.attach-table div.attach-row div div a { text-decoration: none; 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mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level8 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:4.0in; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level9 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:\F0A7; mso-level-tab-stop:4.5in; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;} ol {margin-bottom:0in;} ul {margin-bottom:0in;} --></style></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3D"#954F72"> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 14px;" >[<a style=3D"text-deco= ration: none;" href=3D"#TopText">Attachment(s)</a> from Steve Ropa included= below]</span> <br><br> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>This is what I don=E2=80=99t= get.=C2=A0 If we had all that before, why did anyone say =E2=80=9Csomethin= g needs to change=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0 And so many people said it that we ended = up with the Agile movement. =C2=A0From my recollection of those days, we di= dn=E2=80=99t have all that before.=C2=A0 We had pockets of things that seem= ed to work, but on the whole we were floundering as an industry.=C2=A0 Ever= y Agile leader I=E2=80=99ve talked to has agreed that the individual practi= ces might not be brand spanking new(at the time) but the usage and approach= is absolutely unique and revolutionary.</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> = ;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent from <a href=3D"https://go.microsoft.c= om/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986">Mail</a> for Windows 10</p><p class=3DMsoNormal= ><o:p> </o:p></p><div style=3D'mso-element:para-border-div;border:none= ;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNo= rmal style=3D'border:none;padding:0in'><b>From: </b><a href=3D"mailto:SCRUM= [email protected]">'Alexander Kriegisch' [email protected]= e [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, May 3, 2018 7:46 AM<br><= b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">SCRUMDEVELOPM= [email protected]</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] What is a= gile?</p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorm= al><span style=3D'display:none'> </span> <o:p></o:p></p><div id=3Dygrp= -mlmsg><div id=3Dygrp-msg><div id=3Dygrp-text><p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.= 0pt'>Hi Rafael.<br><br>I am actually tired of hearing or reading this "= ;oh, all that agile stuff<br>was there before Agile". Yes, it was ther= e, but<br><br>a) nobody did it consequently in the combination that compris= es Agile<br>(not even the practices, not to mention principles and values<b= r>underneath) and<br><br>b) it is still not done by many organisations toda= y which claim to be<br>agile.<br><br>Oh, and BTW: You cannot "do Agile= ", only be agile.<br><br>Disclaimer: I do understand that you embrace = the Agile Manifesto in its<br>full beauty, so this is not to say that I thi= nk you don't "get it". I am<br>just saying I am tired of this lin= e of rationale. ;-)<br><br>Kind regards<br>-- <br>Alexander Kriegisch<br>ht= tps://scrum-master.de<br><br>[email protected] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] schr= ieb am 03.05.2018 19:58:<br>> <br>> <br>> Hi everyone,<br>> <br= >> <br>> Firstly, I have to say that we see a lot of trivialisation r= egarding this<br>> matter. It seems like everything that is good fall in= to the "Agile-box"<br>> and what is not good in the "trad= itional-waterfall-box". At least here in<br>> Brazil.<br>> <br>&= gt; <br>> When we ask people what Agile is, we usually get answers aroun= d<br>> "adaptative", "easy to change", "small f= eedback loops", "fit to purpose",<br>> "collaboratio= n", "understand the customer" and some others more passionat= e<br>> ones. But all of these properties was already there before Agile = was born.<br>> <br>> <br>> So, I was wondering how a scientist wou= ld measure whether Agile is been<br>> effective. How to set the boundari= es and not fall into ambiguity or in<br>> particular perceptions.<br>>= ; <br>> <br>> Then I sketched out a particular understanding about wh= at Agile is, and<br>> what makes Agile unique, for me, is the sum of tho= se properties, that is<br>> represented on the manifesto. So, Agile woul= d be to seek the Agile<br>> manifesto values and principles. And that co= uld be measure against actions<br>> toward this goal. What bring us to c= onsider that might also exist levels<br>> of intensity using and seeking= Agile.<br>> <br>> <br>> If Agile is to adapt to customers, we alr= eady had that before. If it is to<br>> deliver value or respond to chang= e, also. But if the context is seeking<br>> actively to address all the = 4 values of the manifesto, using particular<br>> practices and technique= s, that is a different approach that we can call<br>> Agile.<br>> <br= >> <br>> I recognize, though, that is easier to say that someone or s= ome company is<br>> doing Agile, even if they don't follow what I said b= efore. And I have no<br>> problems with that. The Agile movement spread = some good practices and made<br>> them popular and took the credit. That= is apparently doing good to the<br>> practicioners.<br>> <br>> <b= r>> ***<br>> <br>> <br>> Another concern that arises from this = rational is whether any context<br>> could be Agile. And the way I see, = it couldn't. Applying Agile to some<br>> deterministic nature works migh= t result in waste. The contexts that<br>> benefits from experimentation,= that ones, would be eligible to be and use<br>> Agile.<br>> <br>>= <br>> Bests,<br>> <br>> Rafael Buzon<br>> <br>> <br>> --= -In [email protected], <yahoo@...> wrote :<br>> <br= >> <br>> Fair enough, Dave. This was not to replace the Manifesto or = for training<br>> in any way. This was to explain to professional friend= s what we are doing,<br>> in simple business terms. It=E2=80=99s my dist= illation. As a distillation, it=E2=80=99s a<br>> lossy compression algor= ithm. But I thought it communicated the nature of<br>> the domain in a w= ay that many professionals I know can easily grasp. I=E2=80=99m<br>> not= sure, though, that I agree with you that the implications of the<br>> M= anifesto are obvious. If that were true, the glaring delta between the<br>&= gt; manifesto and what most companies are really doing wrote be a whole lot= <br>> more apparent to them. IMO. I like the phrasing you have of =E2=80= =9Cworking<br>> software to interact with,=E2=80=9D and I may incorporat= e that. It is still people<br>> collaborating to discover what the produ= ct wants to be.<br>> <br>> <br>>>> On May 2, 2018, at 9:15 A= M, dave.barrett@...<br>>>> <mailto:dave.barrett@...> [SCRUMD= EVELOPMENT]<br>>>> <[email protected]<br>>>= ;> <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote:<br>>&g= t;> <br>>>> <br>>>> I'm struggling to see value in thi= s definition beyond the content<br>>>> contained in the two pages = on Agile Manifesto website. I had to go back<br>>>> and look at it= , which I recommend that everyone do from time to time,<br>>>> and= it really does seem complete and clear even after all of these<br>>>= > years.<br>>>> <br>>>> <br>>>> Items that ar= en't included on the Manifesto site, like "creating<br>>>> cr= oss-functional teams", aren't really part of Agile, IMHO. This one in<= br>>>> particular seems like a bit of a pipe dream, really. People= aren't<br>>>> fungible resources and shouldn't be organized like = they are. And, surely<br>>>> the principle that, "The best ar= chitectures, requirements, and designs<br>>>> emerge from self-org= anizing teams.", would win out if the team decided<br>>>> tha= t it wanted to work in a very siloed manner?<br>>>> <br>>>&g= t; <br>>>> I'm not trying to be hyper-critical, but one of the big= issues we have<br>>>> in the Agile/Scrum world seems be competing= definitions about<br>>>> fundamental concepts. Here we have 4 mai= n clauses in the Manifesto, and<br>>>> 12 underlying principles. I= t's short, simple and the implications are<br>>>> fairly obvious.<= br>>>> <br>>>> If there was one explanatory item that I'd= ever feel was needed it would<br>>>> be this: Users never really = fully engage in the software design process<br>>>> until you give = them working software to interact with. Requirements,<br>>>> white= -board diagrams, meetings, demos, mock-ups, prototypes or any other<br>>= >> aid you can try will not elicit the input that you need from the<b= r>>>> customer to build the right software. The only defense again= st this is<br>>>> write a minimal amount of working software and g= et it into the customers<br>>>> hands as soon as possible, then li= sten to what they say.<br>>>> <br>>>> It's clear to me th= at the authors of the manifesto completely understood<br>>>> this.= The first 4 principles are all about making that happen.<br>>>> <= br>>>> dave<br>>>> <br>>>> <br>>>> \<br= >>>> <br>>>> <br>> <br>></p></div><div><p class=3DM= soNormal><span style=3D'color:white'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo= rmal><o:p> </o:p></p></div> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <br> <br> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color: white; clear: both;"/>__._,_.___</div> <p style=3D"clear: both; padding: 15px 0 3px 0;"><span style=3D"col= or: #628C2A; font-weight: bold; font-size: 14px;"> Attachment(s) from Steve= Ropa </span> | <span style=3D"font-size: 13px;"><a style=3D"text-decoratio= n:none;" href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SCRUMDEVELOPMENT/attac= hments/1345529006;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJxNnU0MW1wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE1NjkwNj= QEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNhdHRhY2htZW50BHNsawN2aWV3T25XZWIEc3RpbWUDM= TUyNTM1ODM3MA--">View attachments on the web </a></span></p> =20=20=20=20 <p style=3D"clear: both; 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margin-top: 10px;"> <hr style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; backgroun= d-color:#E3E3E3;"> Posted by: Steve Ropa <[email protected]> <hr styl= e=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3E3;"= > </div> <!-- Start Recommendations --> <!-- End Recommendations --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <br><br> <tt> To Post a message, send it to: [email protected]<BR> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: SCRUMDEVELOPMENT-unsubscribe@eGrou= ps.com</tt> <br><br> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <img src=3D"http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=3D97476590/grpId=3D1569064/grpspI= d=3D1705007709/msgId=3D58824/stime=3D1525358370" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"> = <br> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> =20=20=20=20 <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <br> =20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20 =20 <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id=3D"ygrp-vital" style=3D"background-color: #f2f2f2; font-fam= ily: Verdana; font-size: 10px; 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