Re: [testdrivendevelopment] "I think the community needs more explicit direction...."
"Steve Gordon" <[email protected]> Sat, 23 Nov 2019 11:45:35 -0700
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.test-driven-development |
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| Message-ID | <CAF7qo6VFLkCocyMi508urvF_0MXhncriaeu=7CGtok8-w5Xb3g@mail.gmail.com> |
--0000000000004c08ce059807f0b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Good, realistic examples are likely more helpful that explicit instructions. Different tactics, strategies and principles are more useful in different contexts for teams with different skills, experience and levels of sophistication. On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 11:33 AM J. B. Rainsberger <[email protected]> wrote: > I would like to amplify Avi's comment below. > > I have noticed something when programmers try to practise TDD: they don't > seem to learn how to refactor. I don't mean to state this so harshly, but > it seems that they struggle a lot more with refactoring than I did when I > started. I have this feeling that "we" learned relatively quickly compared > to what I see, even comparing myself programming in Java in 1999-2002 to > today's programmer also working with Java. And today's Java programmers > have better libraries and better tools! They use IDEA and Vavr, but I had > Eclipse and plain Java. :) > > I'd like to know your impressions. Which kinds of problems do people have > when they try to learn how to refactor? When they learn how to guide a > design to evolve? Why does it seem like they have more difficulty learning > this than "we" had? > > I admit that I probably have some strong cognitive distortion. That's why > I'm asking this question. > > Cheers, > -- > J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: https://tdd.training :: http://www.jbrains.ca > :: http://www.thecodewhisperer.com > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Avi Kessner <[email protected]> > Date: Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 5:05 AM > Subject: Re: [testdrivendevelopment] We are back on the air! > To: <[email protected]> > > > Is this the diagram you wanted to share? > > > https://osherove.com/blog/2019/11/12/an-updated-diagram-of-the-tdd-process-from-the-upcoming-3rd-edition-of-art-of-unit-testing > > I would recommend making a box which is part of the flow rather than some > external dotted lines. For example, maybe the box should read, " Apply > SOLID principles" as part of the refactoring, and then before the next > failing test have something like, "design the contract" > > I think the community needs more explicit direction on the design being > done in those phases. > > On Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 16:44 J. B. Rainsberger <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 11:27 AM Roy Osherove <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >>> Awesome. I sent a new thread to the group about tdd diagrams. Was it >>> received? >>> >> >> Maybe. >> >> If you sent it to the Yahoo! group, then no. >> >> Please try again--at least until we figure out the transition. :) I want >> to see it! >> -- >> J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: https://tdd.training :: http://www.jbrains.ca >> :: http://www.thecodewhisperer.com >> >> > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#35740): https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/message/35740 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/61850834/3268755 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/leave/6156322/744556386/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- --0000000000004c08ce059807f0b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Good, realistic examples are likely more helpful that expl= icit=C2=A0instructions.=C2=A0 Different tactics, strategies and principles = are more useful in different=C2=A0contexts for teams with different skills,= experience and levels of sophistication.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot= e"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 11:33 AM J= . B. Rainsberger <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">jbrains762@gma= il.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m= argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left= :1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I would like to amplify Avi's comment below= .</div><div><br></div><div>I have noticed something when programmers try to= practise TDD: they don't seem to learn how to refactor. I don't me= an to state this so harshly, but it seems that they struggle a lot more wit= h refactoring than I did when I started. I have this feeling that "we&= quot; learned relatively quickly compared to what I see, even comparing mys= elf programming in Java in 1999-2002 to today's programmer also working= with Java. And today's Java programmers have better libraries and bett= er tools! They use IDEA and Vavr, but I had Eclipse and plain Java. :)</div= ><div><br></div><div>I'd like to know your impressions. Which kinds of = problems do people have when they try to learn how to refactor? When they l= earn how to guide a design to evolve? Why does it seem like they have more = difficulty learning this than "we" had?</div><div><br></div><div>= I admit that I probably have some strong cognitive distortion. That's w= hy I'm asking this question.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div= >-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: <= a href=3D"https://tdd.training" target=3D"_blank">https://tdd.training</a> = :: <span><a href=3D"http://www.jbrains.ca" target=3D"_blank">http://www.jbr= ains.ca</a> :: <a href=3D"http://www.thecodewhisperer.com" target=3D"_blank= ">http://www.thecodewhisperer.com</a></span></div></div></div></div><div><b= r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">--------= -- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername" dir= =3D"auto">Avi Kessner</b> <span dir=3D"auto"><<a href=3D"mailto:akessne= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span><br>Date: T= hu, Nov 14, 2019 at 5:05 AM<br>Subject: Re: [testdrivendevelopment] We are = back on the air!<br>To: <<a href=3D"mailto:testdrivendevelopment@groups= .io" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>><br></div><br= ><br><div dir=3D"auto">Is this the diagram you wanted to share?<div dir=3D"= auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><a href=3D"https://osherove.com/blog/2019= /11/12/an-updated-diagram-of-the-tdd-process-from-the-upcoming-3rd-edition-= of-art-of-unit-testing" target=3D"_blank">https://osherove.com/blog/2019/11= /12/an-updated-diagram-of-the-tdd-process-from-the-upcoming-3rd-edition-of-= art-of-unit-testing</a><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au= to">I would recommend making a box which is part of the flow rather than so= me external dotted lines. For example, maybe the box should read, " Ap= ply SOLID principles" as part of the refactoring, and then before the = next failing test have something like, "design the contract"</div= ><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I think the community needs = more explicit direction on the design being done in those phases.</div></di= v><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On W= ed, Nov 13, 2019, 16:44 J. B. Rainsberger <<a href=3D"mailto:jbrains762@= gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div clas= s=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 12, 201= 9 at 11:27 AM Roy Osherove <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"n= oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><div>= = =C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px = 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div di= r=3D"auto">Awesome.=C2=A0 I sent a new thread to the group about tdd diagra= ms.=C2=A0 Was it received?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Mayb= e.</div><div><br></div><div>If you sent it to the Yahoo! group, then no.</d= iv><div><br></div><div>Please try again--at least until we figure out the t= ransition. :) I want to see it!</div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir= = =3D"ltr"><div>J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: <a href=3D"https://tdd.training" = rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tdd.training</a> :: <span><a h= ref=3D"http://www.jbrains.ca" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://w= ww.jbrains.ca</a> :: <a href=3D"http://www.thecodewhisperer.com" rel=3D"nor= eferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.thecodewhisperer.com</a></span></div>= <div><br></div></div></div></div> </blockquote></div> </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div></div></div></div><= /div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/mes= sage/35740">View/Reply Online (#35740)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subj= ect=3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Btestdrivendevelopment%5D%20%22I%20think%20the%20comm= unity%20needs%20more%20explicit%20direction....%22">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DP= rivate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Btestdrivendevelopment%5D%20%22I%20think%20the%20= community%20needs%20more%20explicit%20direction....%22">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/61850834/3268755">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/post">New Topic</a>= <br> <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/editsub/3268755">Your= Subscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Own= er</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/leave/6156322/7445563= 86/xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --0000000000004c08ce059807f0b7--