[testdrivendevelopment] "I think the community needs more explicit direction...."

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I would like to amplify Avi's comment below.

I have noticed something when programmers try to practise TDD: they don't
seem to learn how to refactor. I don't mean to state this so harshly, but
it seems that they struggle a lot more with refactoring than I did when I
started. I have this feeling that "we" learned relatively quickly compared
to what I see, even comparing myself programming in Java in 1999-2002 to
today's programmer also working with Java. And today's Java programmers
have better libraries and better tools! They use IDEA and Vavr, but I had
Eclipse and plain Java. :)

I'd like to know your impressions. Which kinds of problems do people have
when they try to learn how to refactor? When they learn how to guide a
design to evolve? Why does it seem like they have more difficulty learning
this than "we" had?

I admit that I probably have some strong cognitive distortion. That's why
I'm asking this question.

Cheers,
-- 
J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: https://tdd.training :: http://www.jbrains.ca ::
http://www.thecodewhisperer.com

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Avi Kessner <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 5:05 AM
Subject: Re: [testdrivendevelopment] We are back on the air!
To: <[email protected]>


Is this the diagram you wanted to share?

https://osherove.com/blog/2019/11/12/an-updated-diagram-of-the-tdd-process-from-the-upcoming-3rd-edition-of-art-of-unit-testing

I would recommend making a box which is part of the flow rather than some
external dotted lines. For example, maybe the box should read, " Apply
SOLID principles" as part of the refactoring, and then before the next
failing test have something like, "design the contract"

I think the community needs more explicit direction on the design being
done in those phases.

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 16:44 J. B. Rainsberger <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 11:27 AM Roy Osherove <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> Awesome.  I sent a new thread to the group about tdd diagrams.  Was it
>> received?
>>
>
> Maybe.
>
> If you sent it to the Yahoo! group, then no.
>
> Please try again--at least until we figure out the transition. :) I want
> to see it!
> --
> J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: https://tdd.training :: http://www.jbrains.ca
> :: http://www.thecodewhisperer.com
>
> 

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I would like to amplify Avi&#39;s comment below.</div=
><div><br></div><div>I have noticed something when programmers try to pract=
ise TDD: they don&#39;t seem to learn how to refactor. I don&#39;t mean to =
state this so harshly, but it seems that they struggle a lot more with refa=
ctoring than I did when I started. I have this feeling that &quot;we&quot; =
learned relatively quickly compared to what I see, even comparing myself pr=
ogramming in Java in 1999-2002 to today&#39;s programmer also working with =
Java. And today&#39;s Java programmers have better libraries and better too=
ls! They use IDEA and Vavr, but I had Eclipse and plain Java. :)</div><div>=
<br></div><div>I&#39;d like to know your impressions. Which kinds of proble=
ms do people have when they try to learn how to refactor? When they learn h=
ow to guide a design to evolve? Why does it seem like they have more diffic=
ulty learning this than &quot;we&quot; had?</div><div><br></div><div>I admi=
t that I probably have some strong cognitive distortion. That&#39;s why I&#=
39;m asking this question.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>-- <b=
r><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>J. B. (J=
oe) Rainsberger :: <a href=3D"https://tdd.training" target=3D"_blank">https=
://tdd.training</a> :: <span><a href=3D"http://www.jbrains.ca" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://www.jbrains.ca</a> :: <a href=3D"http://www.thecodewhisperer.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">http://www.thecodewhisperer.com</a></span></div></div=
></div></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <b class=3D"gma=
il_sendername" dir=3D"auto">Avi Kessner</b> <span dir=3D"auto">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: =
Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 5:05 AM<br>Subject: Re: [testdrivendevelopment] We are=
 back on the air!<br>To:  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:testdrivendevelopment@group=
s.io">[email protected]</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br><div dir=3D"=
auto">Is this the diagram you wanted to share?<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><a href=3D"https://osherove.com/blog/2019/11/12/an-updated=
-diagram-of-the-tdd-process-from-the-upcoming-3rd-edition-of-art-of-unit-te=
sting" target=3D"_blank">https://osherove.com/blog/2019/11/12/an-updated-di=
agram-of-the-tdd-process-from-the-upcoming-3rd-edition-of-art-of-unit-testi=
ng</a><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I would recom=
mend making a box which is part of the flow rather than some external dotte=
d lines. For example, maybe the box should read, &quot; Apply SOLID princip=
les&quot; as part of the refactoring, and then before the next failing test=
 have something like, &quot;design the contract&quot;</div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I think the community needs more explicit dir=
ection on the design being done in those phases.</div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 13, 201=
9, 16:44 J. B. Rainsberger &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" targ=
et=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 11:27 AM Roy Osherove &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">roy@o=
sherove.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto">Awesome.=C2=A0 I sent a =
new thread to the group about tdd diagrams.=C2=A0 Was it received?</div></d=
iv></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Maybe.</div><div><br></div><div>If you =
sent it to the Yahoo! group, then no.</div><div><br></div><div>Please try a=
gain--at least until we figure out the transition. :) I want to see it!</di=
v></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>J. B. (Joe) Rainsberg=
er :: <a href=3D"https://tdd.training" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://tdd.training</a> :: <span><a href=3D"http://www.jbrains.ca" rel=3D=
"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.jbrains.ca</a> :: <a href=3D"http=
://www.thecodewhisperer.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://ww=
w.thecodewhisperer.com</a></span></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>



</blockquote></div>



</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_s=
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