Re: [testdrivendevelopment] "I think the community needs more explicit direction...."

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Hi Roy,

Good points!

>=20
> On Nov 25, 2019, at 4:20 AM, Roy Osherove < [email protected] > wrote:
>=20
> Teaching all three at the same time is hard. I've seen people try to jus=
t
> jump into TDD in places and failing because climbing this wall is too hi=
gh
> in one go.
> I've created courses separately for the design part and named them
> "refactoring skills for TDD" because even in a 5 days class, teaching th=
e
> first two skills is difficult enough.
>=20

I particularly like this notion. We do encounter students who seem to lack=
 even elementary notions of code clarity and expressiveness.

>=20
>=20
> I'm not including here the skill of refactoring=C2=A0LEGACY code into a
> testable state. I do teach that stuff, but there seems to be a
> distinction, at least to me between continuous refactoring during new co=
de
> vs legacy (not tests) refactoring which is a much more dangerous state a=
nd
> might even require integration tests to begin. Perhaps we are really
> talking about 4 skills and not three.
>=20

At least some important details, since Michael Feathers wrote a million-pa=
ge book on the topic. :)

Ron Jeffries
ronjeffries.com ( http://ronjeffries.com/ )
Impossible is not a fact. It is an opinion. =C2=A0-- Muhammad Ali

P.S. For some reason my mails don't come thru. Probably my email addresses=
.

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<span style=3D"caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: ArialMT; =
font-size: 18px;">Hi Roy,</span>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family=
: ArialMT; font-size: 18px;">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family=
: ArialMT; font-size: 18px;">Good points!<br class=3D"" />
<div><br class=3D"" />
<blockquote class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Nov 25, 2019, at 4:20 AM, Roy Osherove &lt;<a class=3D"=
" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline" />
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 18px;">Teaching all three at the same =
time is hard. I've seen people try to just jump into TDD in places and fail=
ing because climbing this wall is too high in one go.</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 18px;">I've created courses separately=
 for the design part and named them "refactoring skills for TDD" because ev=
en in a 5 days class, teaching the first two skills is difficult enough.</d=
iv>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
I particularly like this notion. We do encounter students who seem to lack=
 even elementary notions of code clarity and expressiveness.<br class=3D"" =
/>
<blockquote class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 18px;">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 18px;">I'm not including here the skil=
l of refactoring&nbsp;LEGACY code into a testable state. I do teach that st=
uff, but there seems to be a distinction, at least to me between continuous=
 refactoring during new code vs legacy (not tests) refactoring which is a m=
uch more dangerous state and might even require integration tests to begin.=
 Perhaps we are really talking about 4 skills and not three.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
At least some important details, since Michael Feathers wrote a million-pa=
ge book on the topic. :)<br class=3D"" />
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-variant-ligatures: n=
ormal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; line=
-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; widows: 2; word-wrap=
: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline" />Ron Jeffries</di=
v>
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; font-=
variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-po=
sition: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: -webkit-auto; border-spaci=
ng: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><a class=3D"" href=3D"h=
ttp://ronjeffries.com/">ronjeffries.com</a></span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;">
<div class=3D"">Impossible is not a fact. It is an opinion. &nbsp;-- Muham=
mad Ali<br /><br />P.S. For some reason my mails don't come thru. Probably =
my email addresses.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

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