Re: [testdrivendevelopment] "I think the community needs more explicit direction...."
"Jeanne Petrangelo" <[email protected]> Mon, 25 Nov 2019 07:06:31 -0500
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.test-driven-development |
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--000000000000c2263c05982a985d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =E2=80=9CHow do you mentor 20 somethings when they won't READ, even short s= tuff=E2=80=9D I have a 19yo son going to college for software engineering, and he doesn= =E2=80=99t like to read. He prefers videos. It is frustrating. We tried pointing out that vast swaths of information in the world is written down and if he doesn=E2=80=99t learn to ingest information that way, then he=E2=80=99s cu= tting himself off from that info. Reasoning hadn=E2=80=99t motivated him enough; it=E2=80=99= s too abstract. But you have a specific case. Do you get the sense these 20 somethings wan= t to learn, or are they happy enough with the way things are? Maybe starting with goal setting so they understand =E2=80=9Cwhy=E2=80=9D and what=E2=80= =99s in it for them, first? On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 1:03 AM Charles Gallo <[email protected]> wrot= e: > Steve (et al) > So here is the real question I have > I've gotten older, and it seems out of touch with a lot of the younger > developers > > I was brought in to mentor them on this stuff, refactoring, TDD etc (and > of course get out code, setup CD/CI etc etc - of course all at the same > time ASAP) > > How do you mentor 20 somethings when they won't READ, even short stuff > > I tried to get them interested in "Brownfield Development" - Or > Feathers, etc - and even when you hand them something as small as a > partial chapter, or a simple write-up, you get blown off that they don't > read (and this is management, as well as the Jr developers) > > I've noticed at the last couple of places. One place - Give them the > basic instructions for GIT/TortoiseGIT, no one can be bothered to read > it, and one culprit (the CEO no less) would cowboy code, have it on his > PC, not in any source control, and yell when you can't get things to > work (the only semi working copy of the web site source was on his > laptop) > > I don't understand how to get through to these folks anymore > > Trying to get them to understand WHY you TDD - Why you can't get CI/CD > setup on a legacy project in a week (all manual builds off a developers > PC, with no tests run, even though there were tests) > > > > On 2019-11-24 19:49, Steven Smith wrote: > > Autocorrect: yeah->teach > > > > > >> On Nov 24, 2019, at 19:48, Steven Smith via Groups.Io > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> =EF=BB=BFI yeah refactoring a lot, and I think practice helps (shocki= ng, I > >> know). I include it in my workshops as well as in free resources on m= y > >> github (https://github.com/ardalis/kata-catalog). I also have three > >> different Pluralsight courses on refactoring, including the monster 8 > >> hour course Refactoring Fundamentals. Anyone can access these with a > >> trial account and most enterprise shops I talk to have subscriptions > >> for their folks. > >> > >> But to JB=E2=80=99s point, I do think it=E2=80=99s a part of TDD that= newer devs lack > >> confidence and probably skill to perform, at least until they gain > >> experience with it. > >> > >> Steve > >=20 > > -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#35763): https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/mess= age/35763 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/61850834/3268755 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/leave/6156322/74455= 6386/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- --000000000000c2263c05982a985d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div><div dir=3D"auto">=E2=80=9CHow do you mentor 20 somethings when they w= on't READ, even short stuff=E2=80=9D</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><= /div><div dir=3D"auto">I have a 19yo son going to college for software engi= neering, and he doesn=E2=80=99t like to read. He prefers videos. It is frus= trating. We tried pointing out that vast swaths of information in the world= is written down and if he doesn=E2=80=99t learn to ingest information that= way, then he=E2=80=99s cutting himself off from that info. Reasoning hadn= =E2=80=99t motivated him enough; it=E2=80=99s too abstract. But you have a= specific case. Do you get the sense these 20 somethings want to learn, or = are they happy enough with the way things are? Maybe starting with goal set= ting so they understand =E2=80=9Cwhy=E2=80=9D and what=E2=80=99s in it for = them, first?</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas= s=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 1:03 AM Charles Gallo <<a href= =3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br>= </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Steve (et al)<br> So here is the real question I have<br> I've gotten older, and it seems out of touch with a lot of the younger= <br> developers<br> <br> I was brought in to mentor them on this stuff, refactoring, TDD etc (and <= br> of course get out code, setup CD/CI etc etc - of course all at the same <b= r> time ASAP)<br> <br> How do you mentor 20 somethings when they won't READ, even short stuff= <br> <br> I tried to get them interested in "Brownfield Development" - Or = <br> Feathers, etc - and even when you hand them something as small as a <br> partial chapter, or a simple write-up, you get blown off that they don'= ;t <br> read (and this is management, as well as the Jr developers)<br> <br> I've noticed at the last couple of places.=C2=A0 One place - Give them= the <br> basic instructions for GIT/TortoiseGIT, no one can be bothered to read <br= > it, and one culprit (the CEO no less) would cowboy code, have it on his <b= r> PC, not in any source control, and yell when you can't get things to <= br> work (the only semi working copy of the web site source was on his <br> laptop)<br> <br> I don't understand how to get through to these folks anymore<br> <br> Trying to get them to understand WHY you TDD - Why you can't get CI/CD= <br> setup on a legacy project in a week (all manual builds off a developers <b= r> PC, with no tests run, even though there were tests)<br> <br> <br> <br> On 2019-11-24 19:49, Steven Smith wrote:<br> > Autocorrect: yeah->teach<br> > <br> > <br> >> On Nov 24, 2019, at 19:48, Steven Smith via Groups.Io <br> >> <ssmith.lists=3D<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target= =3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> >> <br> >> =EF=BB=BFI yeah refactoring a lot, and I think practice helps (sh= ocking, I <br> >> know). I include it in my workshops as well as in free resources = on my <br> >> github (<a href=3D"https://github.com/ardalis/kata-catalog" rel= =3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ardalis/kata-catalog<= /a>). I also have three <br> >> different Pluralsight courses on refactoring, including the monst= er 8 <br> >> hour course Refactoring Fundamentals. Anyone can access these wit= h a <br> >> trial account and most enterprise shops I talk to have subscripti= ons <br> >> for their folks.<br> >> <br> >> But to JB=E2=80=99s point, I do think it=E2=80=99s a part of TDD = that newer devs lack <br> >> confidence and probably skill to perform, at least until they gai= n <br> >> experience with it.<br> >> <br> >> Steve<br> <br> <br> <br> </blockquote></div></div> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/mes= sage/35763">View/Reply Online (#35763)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subj= ect=3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Btestdrivendevelopment%5D%20%22I%20think%20the%20comm= unity%20needs%20more%20explicit%20direction....%22">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3D= Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Btestdrivendevelopment%5D%20%22I%20think%20the%2= 0community%20needs%20more%20explicit%20direction....%22">Reply To Sender</a= > | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/61850834/3268755">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/post">New Topic</a>= <br> <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/editsub/3268755">Your= Subscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Own= er</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/leave/6156322/7445563= 86/xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --000000000000c2263c05982a985d--