Re: [testdrivendevelopment] "I think the community needs more explicit direction...."

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We hire a lot of developers straight out of school or working less than 3
years.

From what I have seen, TDD is viewed as a skill used on Greenfield
projects, and refactoring is seen as something you do with legacy code.
(And still gets confused with 'throw it away and start over')

I have to have more than one code review with them until it clicks that you
do both together, always.

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 15:05 Ron Jeffries <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi Roy,
>
> Good points!
>
> On Nov 25, 2019, at 4:20 AM, Roy Osherove <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Teaching all three at the same time is hard. I've seen people try to just
> jump into TDD in places and failing because climbing this wall is too high
> in one go.
> I've created courses separately for the design part and named them
> "refactoring skills for TDD" because even in a 5 days class, teaching the
> first two skills is difficult enough.
>
>
> I particularly like this notion. We do encounter students who seem to lack
> even elementary notions of code clarity and expressiveness.
>
>
> I'm not including here the skill of refactoring LEGACY code into a
> testable state. I do teach that stuff, but there seems to be a distinction,
> at least to me between continuous refactoring during new code vs legacy
> (not tests) refactoring which is a much more dangerous state and might even
> require integration tests to begin. Perhaps we are really talking about 4
> skills and not three.
>
>
> At least some important details, since Michael Feathers wrote a
> million-page book on the topic. :)
>
> Ron Jeffries
> ronjeffries.com
> Impossible is not a fact. It is an opinion.  -- Muhammad Ali
>
> P.S. For some reason my mails don't come thru. Probably my email addresses.
> 
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">We hire a lot of developers straight out of school or wor=
king less than 3 years.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">From w=
hat I have seen, TDD is viewed as a skill used on Greenfield projects, and =
refactoring is seen as something you do with legacy code. (And still gets c=
onfused with &#39;throw it away and start over&#39;)</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I have to have more than one code review with =
them until it clicks that you do both together, always.</div></div><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 25=
, 2019, 15:05 Ron Jeffries &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" =
rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span style=3D"color:#=
000000;font-family:ArialMT;font-size:18px">Hi Roy,</span>
<div style=3D"color:#000000;font-family:ArialMT;font-size:18px">=C2=A0</di=
v>
<div style=3D"color:#000000;font-family:ArialMT;font-size:18px">Good point=
s!<br>
<div><br>
<blockquote>
<div>On Nov 25, 2019, at 4:20 AM, Roy Osherove &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:roy@o=
sherove.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">roy=
@osherove.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-size:18px">Teaching all three at the same time is hard.=
 I&#39;ve seen people try to just jump into TDD in places and failing becau=
se climbing this wall is too high in one go.</div>
<div style=3D"font-size:18px">I&#39;ve created courses separately for the =
design part and named them &quot;refactoring skills for TDD&quot; because e=
ven in a 5 days class, teaching the first two skills is difficult enough.</=
div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
I particularly like this notion. We do encounter students who seem to lack=
 even elementary notions of code clarity and expressiveness.<br>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-size:18px">=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"font-size:18px">I&#39;m not including here the skill of refa=
ctoring=C2=A0LEGACY code into a testable state. I do teach that stuff, but =
there seems to be a distinction, at least to me between continuous refactor=
ing during new code vs legacy (not tests) refactoring which is a much more =
dangerous state and might even require integration tests to begin. Perhaps =
we are really talking about 4 skills and not three.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
At least some important details, since Michael Feathers wrote a million-pa=
ge book on the topic. :)<br>
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-var=
iant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;word-wrap=
:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div><br>Ron Jeffries</div>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font=
-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;borde=
r-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"http://ronjeffries.com/" rel=3D"noreferrer norefe=
rrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ronjeffries.com</a></span></div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div>Impossible is not a fact. It is an opinion. =C2=A0-- Muhammad Ali<br>=
<br>P.S. For some reason my mails don&#39;t come thru. Probably my email ad=
dresses.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>



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