Re: Trying to do some research on the effects of biofeedback
Ray Cole <[email protected]> Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:50:47 +0000
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.science.openeeg.general |
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| Message-ID | <MWHPR17MB107176F12804962FF66C591FC0709@MWHPR17MB1071.namprd17.prod.outlook.com> |
--===============0803784316972560969== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MWHPR17MB107176F12804962FF66C591FC0709MWHPR17MB1071namp_" --_000_MWHPR17MB107176F12804962FF66C591FC0709MWHPR17MB1071namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jens, What you stated is logical, just as it would make sense to consider almost = any kind medical treatment to be more effective, if tailored to the needs o= f a particular patient, rather than using a 'one-size-fits-all' approach; h= owever, I would like to see the results of any rigorous, scientific studies= which have examined the effectiveness of qEEG therapy; so far, I have yet = to encounter mention of any such study. The key word in your response is 'allegedly,' which sounds as though you, t= oo, are basing your comment on anecdotal reports, not a published, scientif= ic study. So far, I am in the same position as you, having only heard of am= azing results, but still left wondering if they are really based on any rig= orous studies that include such things as repeatability, double-blinded pro= tocol, statistical analysis, peer review, etc. If you know of any such stud= ies, I would appreciate it, if you could point me to them. Of course, the = problem with such extravagant results as those claimed by the commercial pr= oviders is the same as anyone who is trying to make money, so they are of n= o interest, to me. From what I have found, online, it appears as though the use of qEEG is not= widespread in the medical community, which makes it suspect; as the old sa= ying goes, 'The proof is in the pudding'; i.e., if it really works, then yo= u wonder why it is not widely used by now, since it has been around for dec= ades. Regards, Ray Cole [email protected] ________________________________ From: Jens K=F6rner <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, April 3, 2021 1:59 AM To: Discussion of EEG hardware, software, training protocols, NFB theory - = for developers and users. <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Openeeg-list] Trying to do some research on the effects of bi= ofeedback Hi Laura, my experience with neurofeedback is mainly as a patient of severe early childhood brain trauma. In my opinion the main source of confusion in the field originates in a lack of differentiation: Broadly speaking, there are two very different kinds of neurofeedbacktrainig: 1. The generalized way: trainig each participant's brain to match a statistical average. That's done by most providers. It's a little bit scalable and sometimes has some useful effect. 2. The individualized approach (Sebern Fisher, Jim Hardt): totally unscalable; therefore expensive; with allegedly spectacular results. Perhaps this is of some use to you. Regards Jens 2021-04-03 10:03 GMT+02:00, Stefan Jung <[email protected]>: > Hi Laura > > This site is DEAD. It feels like a lifetime ago that I last posted here > > Firstly, I think you should speak / search Neurofeedback (NFB) rather tha= n > biofeedback. > > If someone tells me he is interested in biofeedback I think about: > > - Hand temperature biofeedback to reduce migraines > - GSR / SCL skin resistance biofeedback for meditation, hypertension, etc > - HRV (Heart Rate Variance), for similar uses as SCL > - etc. > > Here are three group recommendations: > > Brain-trainer > brain-trainer.com run by Peter van Deusen. Peter used to be a hospital > administrator (I think), many years ago in the US. I think the man must > have at least 20 years of NFB experience by now. Very helpful and > knowledgeable. For the last few years he has been operating from > Brazil. He has a very active community and a forum where they discuss > various NFB applications, etc. > > OpenBCI > https://openbci.com/ > Their main goal is to use BCI ( Brain Computer Interfacing) for command a= nd > control. For instance, a handycaped person that can control a wheelchair > or computer with a BCI interface. > > OpenVIBE > http://openvibe.inria.fr/ > A research organisation based in France > They seem to concentrate on the software layer running on various BCI > equipment. Not sure how active they are these days. > > Regards > Stefan > _______________________________________________ Openeeg-list mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list Go to the above address to change your subscription options, e.g unsubscribe. --_000_MWHPR17MB107176F12804962FF66C591FC0709MWHPR17MB1071namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-= 1"> <style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bo= ttom:0;} </style> </head> <body dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Hi Jens,</div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> What you stated is logical, just as it would make sense to consider almost = any kind medical treatment to be more effective, if tailored to the needs o= f a particular patient, rather than using a 'one-size-fits-all' approach; h= owever, I would like to see the results of any rigorous, scientific studies which have examined the effect= iveness of qEEG therapy; so far, I have yet to encounter mention of any suc= h study. </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> The key word in your response is 'allegedly,' which sounds as though you, t= oo, are basing your comment on anecdotal reports, not a published, scientif= ic study. So far, I am in the same position as you, having only heard of am= azing results, but still left wondering if they are really based on any rigorous studies that include such things = as repeatability, double-blinded protocol, statistical analysis, peer revie= w, etc. If you know of any such studies, I would appreciate it, if you coul= d point me to them. Of course, the problem with such extravagant results as those claimed by the commerci= al providers is the same as anyone who is trying to make money, so they are= of no interest, to me. </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> From what I have found, online, it appears as though the use of qEEG is not= widespread in the medical community, which makes it suspect; as the old sa= ying goes, 'The proof is in the pudding'; i.e., if it really works, then yo= u wonder why it is not widely used by now, since it has been around for decades. </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Regards, </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Ray Cole</div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> [email protected] </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div> <div id=3D"appendonsend"></div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color= :rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%"> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co= lor=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Jens K=F6rner <jns= [email protected]><br> <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 3, 2021 1:59 AM<br> <b>To:</b> Discussion of EEG hardware, software, training protocols, NFB th= eory - for developers and users. <[email protected]>= <br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openeeg-list] Trying to do some research on the effect= s of biofeedback</font> <div> </div> </div> <div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"= > <div class=3D"PlainText">Hi Laura,<br> <br> my experience with neurofeedback is mainly as a patient of severe<br> early childhood brain trauma.<br> <br> In my opinion the main source of confusion in the field originates in<br> a lack of differentiation:<br> <br> Broadly speaking, there are two very different kinds of<br> neurofeedbacktrainig: 1. The generalized way: trainig each<br> participant's brain to match a statistical average. That's done by<br> most providers. It's a little bit scalable and sometimes has some<br> useful effect.<br> 2. The individualized approach (Sebern Fisher, Jim Hardt): totally<br> unscalable; therefore expensive; with allegedly spectacular results.<br> <br> Perhaps this is of some use to you.<br> Regards<br> Jens<br> <br> <br> <br> 2021-04-03 10:03 GMT+02:00, Stefan Jung <[email protected]>:<br> > Hi Laura<br> ><br> > This site is DEAD. It feels like a lifetime ago that I last post= ed here<br> ><br> > Firstly, I think you should speak / search Neurofeedback (NFB) rather = than<br> > biofeedback.<br> ><br> > If someone tells me he is interested in biofeedback I think about:<br> ><br> > - Hand temperature biofeedback to reduce migraines<br> > - GSR / SCL skin resistance biofeedback for meditation, hypertension, = etc<br> > - HRV (Heart Rate Variance), for similar uses as SCL<br> > - etc.<br> ><br> > Here are three group recommendations:<br> ><br> > Brain-trainer<br> > brain-trainer.com run by Peter van Deusen. Peter used to b= e a hospital<br> > administrator (I think), many years ago in the US. I think the m= an must<br> > have at least 20 years of NFB experience by now. Very helpful an= d<br> > knowledgeable. For the last few years he has been operating from= <br> > Brazil. He has a very active community and a forum where they di= scuss<br> > various NFB applications, etc.<br> ><br> > OpenBCI<br> > <a href=3D"https://openbci.com/">https://openbci.com/</a><br> > Their main goal is to use BCI ( Brain Computer Interfacing) for comman= d and<br> > control. For instance, a handycaped person that can control a wh= eelchair<br> > or computer with a BCI interface.<br> ><br> > OpenVIBE<br> > <a href=3D"http://openvibe.inria.fr/">http://openvibe.inria.fr/</a><br= > > A research organisation based in France<br> > They seem to concentrate on the software layer running on various BCI<= br> > equipment. Not sure how active they are these days.<br> ><br> > Regards<br> > Stefan<br> ><br> <br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> Openeeg-list mailing list<br> [email protected]<br> <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list">https= ://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list</a><br> Go to the above address to change your<br> subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.<br> </div> </span></font></div> </div> </body> </html> --_000_MWHPR17MB107176F12804962FF66C591FC0709MWHPR17MB1071namp_-- --===============0803784316972560969== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline --===============0803784316972560969== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline