Re: [CinePaint] Cinepaint-users Digest, Vol 38, Issue 1

Milan/Frank:
Thank you for your replies.  In answer to the questions you pose:

I'm no pro, but would consider myself fairly advanced at photo
manipulation or photo editing or whatever term you would like to use.
I've spent years with my film cameras, and quite some time scanning
images before I invested in decent digital gear.  Not that it matters,
but my film cameras were Minoltas, the last being a Maxxum 9000, and I
purchased an Alpha 100 late in the product cycle, then, upgraded to an
Alpha 700 when they were introduced.

I can do basic stuff on CS4, and it's a great program that would no
doubt pay dividends if I stuck with it and learned it, but don't care
to really delve into that program as I have migrated nearly
exclusively to Linux and open source.  I've spent a lot of time in the
Gimp, have worked through the Meet the Gimp tutorials, and feel I am
adequately productive at turning RAW images (using one of the
converters, usually UFRAW) into presentable images.

Gimp is likely sufficient for my needs, except that I keep reading
about the 'deeper' possibilities presented by Cinepaint (some rather
strident pleadings in that regard are offered on the Cinepaint.org
site).  Some of the photographic examples offered are also quite
stunning, although, I can only judge them via my monitor, so, although
it is obvious that they are beautiful images shot by skillful and
experienced photographers, I doubt my monitor does them justice to the
extent that I can distinguish them meaningfully from efforts made by
photographers of equal skill using Gimp.

I've been salivating for a working copy of Cinepaint for some time,
now, and, yes, it is partly out of curiosity, but mainly, because I
want to experience for myself what improvement (if any) Cinepaint can
bring to my results as compared with the Gimp.

"The goal is not to learn a certain brand of software;
the goal is to learn image processing"

With all due respect, Frank, the above might be true in many (perhaps
most) cases, and, no doubt, I'll not live long enough to truly master
image processing, but I get some decent results because I work pretty
hard at it.  I do, also, enjoy learning different "brands of
software", more accurately, I enjoy picking into applications to see
just how they work.  It's my curiosity about applications that led me
to discover the Gimp (and Photoshop many years and several versions
ago), and, for that matter, Linux.
Your 'goals' statement would hold true for operating systems even more
so than for editing applications.  Surely, it matters little whether
you process words or photos in Windows or Linux or on a MAC.  Once an
application is open, the quality of the work would be little affected
by the operating system that hosts the application.  That said, many
(myself included) enjoy dabbling in different operating systems.

While learning different applications may not lead directly to better
image processing, basic procedures that you learn out of curiosity in
one application are generally applicable to other photo editing
applications.

I'm a little let down to learn that Cinepaint's tools have not evolved
at the same rate as the Gimp's, mainly because it means I'll have to
relearn how to accomplish certain tasks, but, since I cannot
contribute in updating these tools, it looks as though I'll just have
to learn how to use them as they are.  I still want to learn this
application, and, the helpful comments in the responses to this thread
will help me on my way.

I guess what most users would do as a first step is to build some of
the brushes that they would normally use most often.  I know I prefer
to use the largest brush possible with a feathered edge - that seems
to work best for me.  So, I'll just have to build a couple.

Thanks again for your replies.

JC

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 8:03 AM,
<cinepaint-users-request-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> wrote:
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Where can I look for help in learning Cinepaint? (John Calloway)
>   2. Cinepaint 0.22-1 - where to start - correction (John Calloway)
>   3. Re: Where can I look for help in learning Cinepaint?
>      (Milan Kn??ek)
>   4. Re: Where can I look for help in learning Cinepaint?
>      (Frank Peters)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 08:49:03 -0400
> From: John Calloway <[email protected]>
> Subject: [CinePaint] Where can I look for help in learning Cinepaint?
> To: cinepaint-users-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org
> Message-ID:
>        <d7a8b0190909130549t8c7e700n830bbd6dbdeccc62-JsoAwUIsXouhRSP0FMvGiw@public.gmane.orgm>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I run Ubuntu 9.04 (and have read that it is a disadvantage for using
> Cinepaint), and have spent considerable time learning the Gimp, but it
> seems I keep running into comments in most web discussion how
> Cinepaint is basically superior to Gimp.
>
> Long story short, I'd like to learn Cinepaint and expeirence it for myself.
>
> I've installed version 0.22-1 on my machine, and it runs ok.  There
> are obvious similarities to Gimp, but it varies enough that I am
> currently unable to be productive.
>
> It could be my familiarity with Gimp that's holding me back (currently
> using Gimp 2.6.7) or my slowness, generally.
>
> Things I do not understand:
>
> How do I scale a brush in Cinepaint?  When I double click the brush
> tool icon, the dialog that appears includes spacing (don't know what
> that does), but nothing about scailing.
> How do I scale the clone tool?  A scale dialog appears when I double
> click that tool, but making changes seem not to affect the size of the
> brush.
>
> I need to get past these few basic tasks before I can continue on my
> way in exploring this program.
>
> I realize I'm not running the latest version - seems that it's not
> ready for Ubuntu 9.04 because of the GTK1 --> GTK2 issue.  I am a user
> of software, so I am not conversant with the underlying meaning of
> GTK1vs2, but from what I read, Ubuntu moved away from GTK1 and now,
> until you Cinepaint developers have time to code necessary changes, we
> Ubuntu 9.04 users are out of luck with Cinepaint (must be a challenge
> to keep applications viable when platforms develop in ways that break
> working applications).
>
> In any event, I am most excited at the prospect of learning this
> application.  I spent a couple years in the fog as I labored to get a
> handle on the Gimp.  I'm guessing that making the move to Cinepaint
> should be somewhat less painful, but, regardless, I have the tenacity
> to stay with it until I am comfortable with the application.
>
> At this time, my interest is in using Cinepaint to manipulate photos.
>
> Thank you in advance for any help you can offer.
>
> JC
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 08:53:24 -0400
> From: John Calloway <[email protected]>
> Subject: [CinePaint] Cinepaint 0.22-1 - where to start - correction
> To: cinepaint-users-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org
> Message-ID:
>        <d7a8b0190909130553r3fa9d122rb7e719d4b9e0c3a3-JsoAwUIsXounXO2b/[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I stated previously that my OS was Ubuntu 9.04.  I should have
> mentioned that I'm running Ubuntu Studio 9.04 if that makes any
> difference.  I switched to Studio after reading on your site that it
> supports Cinepaint.
>
> JC
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:03:40 +0200
> From: Milan Kn??ek <knizek.confy-VIXq6x/[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [CinePaint] Where can I look for help in learning
>        Cinepaint?
> To: CinePaint Users <cinepaint-users-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org>
> Message-ID: <1252861420.3966.43.camel@athlon>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> John Calloway p??e v Ne 13. 09. 2009 v 08:49 -0400:
>> I run Ubuntu 9.04 (and have read that it is a disadvantage for using
>> Cinepaint), and have spent considerable time learning the Gimp, but it
>> seems I keep running into comments in most web discussion how
>> Cinepaint is basically superior to Gimp.
>>
>> Long story short, I'd like to learn Cinepaint and expeirence it for myself.
>
> Do you want to use it just for the curiosity or do you have some reason?
> (I.e. why GIMP is not sufficient?)
>
> Note that CinePaint is a fork from Gimp many many years ago and some
> tools have not seen improvement since then.
>
> Have a look at docs at http://www.cinepaint.org/docs/index.html
>
> or the old GIMP tutorial:
> http://www.cinepaint.org/tutorial/Grokking-the-GIMP/index.html
>
> But you are right, there are reasons why people use it.
>
>> How do I scale a brush in Cinepaint?  When I double click the brush
>> tool icon, the dialog that appears includes spacing (don't know what
>> that does), but nothing about scailing.
>
> It cannot be done. You can create a new brush of a larger size (create
> new and then edit). To see what spacing does, change the amount, draw a
> line, change it again and look for the difference.
>
>> How do I scale the clone tool?  A scale dialog appears when I double
>> click that tool, but making changes seem not to affect the size of the
>> brush.
>
> Same as above. The clone tool is actually using brushes. Scaling of
> source patch to the cloned patch probably does not work.
>
>> I realize I'm not running the latest version - seems that it's not
>> ready for Ubuntu 9.04 because of the GTK1 --> GTK2 issue.  I am a user
>> of software, so I am not conversant with the underlying meaning of
>> GTK1vs2, but from what I read, Ubuntu moved away from GTK1 and now,
>> until you Cinepaint developers have time to code necessary changes, we
>> Ubuntu 9.04 users are out of luck with Cinepaint (must be a challenge
>> to keep applications viable when platforms develop in ways that break
>> working applications).
>
> It can be compiled in Ubuntu 9.04 using GTK2, but it may require some
> basic know-how. You may have a look at:
>
> http://cinepaint.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/cinepaint/cinepaint-project/cvs-read.sh?revision=1.1&view=markup
>
> http://cinepaint.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/cinepaint/cinepaint-project/ubuntu.sh?view=markup
>
> regards,
>
> Milan Knizek
> knizek (dot) confy (at) volny (dot) cz
> http://www.milan-knizek.net - About linux and photography (Czech
> language only)
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 13:50:12 -0400
> From: Frank Peters <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [CinePaint] Where can I look for help in learning
>        Cinepaint?
> To: cinepaint-users-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org
> Message-ID: <20090913135012.ecf45c50.frank.peters-Wuw85uim5zDR7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 08:49:03 -0400
> John Calloway <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> In any event, I am most excited at the prospect of learning this
>> application.  I spent a couple years in the fog as I labored to get a
>> handle on the Gimp.  I'm guessing that making the move to Cinepaint
>> should be somewhat less painful, but, regardless, I have the tenacity
>> to stay with it until I am comfortable with the application.
>>
>
> The goal is not to learn a certain brand of software; the goal
> is to learn image processing.  Once the basic concepts of digital
> image processing are firmly understood, then any software package
> that deals with images can be quickly mastered.  After all, they
> are all the same.
>
> I stress this point because it is a common misconception that,
> somehow, image processing software differs completely from one
> brand to  another.  But this is nonsense.  The only difference
> may be the menu sequence that is used to invoke a certain operation,
> but that is a totally insignificant detail.
>
> To use an analogy, one learns only to drive a car.  One does not
> learn to drive a Ford or a Toyota or a Volkswagen.  The same idea
> applies to image processing software.
>
> So, the primary task is to become thoroughly familiar with all
> image processing theory.  Once this is accomplished, the use of
> any image processing software becomes trivial.
>
> Fortunately, the Internet has many web sites that are devoted to
> the techniques and theory of image processing.  Use any of these
> sites as a starting point for study.
>
>> At this time, my interest is in using Cinepaint to manipulate photos.
>>
>
> Cinepaint is a good choice because of its 16-bit capabilities.
> With my Nikon SLR, I get results that are certainly as good as
> with Photoshop.  But, for digital photography, the results will
> depend on the availability of a suitable color profile.  If your
> camera manufacturer provides profiles that are publicly accessible,
> then you should have no problem.
>
> Frank Peters
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> End of Cinepaint-users Digest, Vol 38, Issue 1
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