Re: Photoshop Plugin importing as RGB/16 bit
[email protected] Fri, 5 Jun 2009 18:28:24 -0500 (CDT)
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.video.openexr.user |
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| Message-ID | <1046195031.2430161244244504627.JavaMail.root@mb1> |
--===============0886929400== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_27865_1433804974.1244244504625" ------=_Part_27865_1433804974.1244244504625 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris,=20 I have read the entire thread about this topic at the Adobe Forum (1). It's= sad that Photoshop currently discards RGB data of pixels that have zero op= acity. I'm not alone (2,3) in wanting the flexibility in Photoshop to be ab= le to open EXR's/PNG's/etc and have the capability to modify/remove the opa= city/transparency of an image. I know for a fact that both EXR files (4,5) = and PNG files (6) store RGB data when the A channel is set to zero. I perso= nally think that it is a poor decision on Adobe's part to assume that opaci= ty/transparency channel should be loaded into the transparency value withou= t also providing tools to modify that value. If we had some way to paint th= e transparency back to 1.0 (much the same way that you can paint a layers m= ask), then I don't think that this would be an issue at all! In my ideal wo= rld, the EXR and PNG plugins would create an RGB layer and load the opacity= /transparency data into a layer mask.=20 As far as my "confusion" between "Alpha Channels" and "Transparency/Opacity= Channels", I'm not a software developer. I'm a user of commercial software= in a professional animation firm. Every application that I use (7) has the= ability to read and/or write RGB information to every pixel of an EXR/PNG = image regardless the value of the alpha/transparency channel, EXCEPT Photos= hop. The lack of Photoshops ability to also do this makes it a little less = useful to me. I find it amazing that in order to edit some of my images in = an "image editor" (aka Photoshop), that I must strip the alpha channel usin= g another application. Would it not make since that Photoshop should be abl= e to read and write any supported image format, and have the written file c= ontain the same data as the origonal?=20 I really appreciate your continued activity on the Adobe Forum. From my exp= irence with other topics/products, many embattled developers quickly get fl= ustered and quit monitoring threads like that. On the other hand, I'm also = amazed that you have a large number of users from major VFX/Animation firms= (including a co-author of the EXR docs) asking for a change, and you're st= eadfastness aginst them in the name of your interptation of technical accur= acy.=20 I really hope that Photoshop CS5 contains something that will allow us user= s to edit images in the maner of our choosing. (no matter how wrong we are)= =20 Thanks!=20 -Ray=20 (1) http://forums.adobe.com/thread/369637=20 (2) http://forums.adobe.com/message/1536084#1536084=20 (3) http://forums.adobe.com/message/1536077#1536077=20 (4) http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/OpenEXR-images/ScanLines/PrismsLense= s.exr?root=3Dopenexr&view=3Dlog=20 (5) http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/OpenEXR-images/ScanLines/CandleGlass= .exr?root=3Dopenexr&view=3Dlog=20 (6) http://www.nc3d.com/temp/PNG_With_Alpha_Sample.png=20 (7) 3D Studio Max, Lightwave, SoftImage, VRay, After Effects, Combustion=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Chris Cox" <[email protected]>=20 To: [email protected], "openexr-user" <[email protected]>=20 Sent: Friday, June 5, 2009 3:00:55 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific=20 Subject: Re: [Openexr-user] Photoshop Plugin importing as RGB/16 bit=20 Re: [Openexr-user] Photoshop Plugin importing as RGB/16 bit Again, Photosho= p is a straight color application =E2=80=93 there is no such thing as color= values when the opacity is zero.=20 PNG is also well defined in it=E2=80=99s behavior =E2=80=93 and behaves exa= ctly as the file format specification says it must.=20 TIFF can support alpha channels (which can contain anything) AND transparen= cy/opacity channels. It sounds like you have these confused.=20 Chris=20 On 6/5/09 10:14 AM, " [email protected] " < [email protected] > wrote:=20 Hi Chris,=20 Maybe I didn't explain this well enough. There really is a couple of issues= here. So to explain further, I have an EXR file rendered out of 3DStudio i= n a HDR scene. The scene is a landscape with buildings, hills, and a sky. T= he hills and buildings have an alpha of 1.0, the sky has an alpha of 0.0. T= he RGB information is not limited to a 0.0 - 1.0 range... there are some co= lor values that go up into the 5.0-8.0 range (for example bright reflection= s on the windows, and the color of the clouds in the sky).=20 If I use the default EXR plugin in CS4 it creates an RGB/32 document, but t= he sky comes in 100% transparent. This is great if I don't need the sky, bu= t there is color data for the sky in the EXR file. The sky is blue and ther= e are white clouds. In After Effects I can alter the way it deals with the = alpha, and I have the choice to ignore the alpha if I so choose. In Photosh= op there are no options to do this. The EXR plugin is not the only one that= does this. The PNG plugin for example also discards all color data where t= he alpha is 0.0. The TIFF plugin on the other hand puts the alpha informati= on into a sepperate channel. I can then choose to use that alpha however I = wish. Sometimes it's nice to have the alpha pre-composited with the RGB dat= a the way the PNG/EXR plugin works, but it would also be nice to have an op= tion somewhere that modifies how Photoshop deals with alpha in an image. I = would love an option in the main program settings that globally modified ho= w all image importers dealt with the Alpha.=20 Now if I use the plugin on the OpenEXR website, it brings up a dialog where= I can choose to Un-Premultiply, I can change the Gamma, and I can alter th= e Exposure. It also places the alpha into a sepperate channel like the way = the TIFF plugin works. I can see my sky and I have my alpha in a sepperate = channel so that I can do with it what I please. The two problems I have wit= h this plugin is that; 1) It creates an RGB/16 document instead of a RGB/32= which clamps the RGB values and leaves me stuck with the gamma/exposure se= ttings I selected during import, and 2) There is no 64bit version of the pl= ugin.=20 To recap, the default EXR plugin needs a user control for how it deals with= the alpha, and the OpenEXR plugin needs to open the image as a RGB/32 so t= hat it does not clamp the color values.=20 I hope this posting is more clear.=20 -Ray=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Chris Cox" < [email protected] >=20 To: [email protected] , [email protected]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2009 6:37:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific=20 Subject: Re: [Openexr-user] Photoshop Plugin importing as RGB/16 bit=20 Re: [Openexr-user] Photoshop Plugin importing as RGB/16 bit Ray;=20 Photoshop is a straight color application, and OpenEXR is defined as being = premultiplied. This means that OpenEXR data has to be un-multiplied by the = transparency/opacity values to work in Photoshop. To a straight color appli= cation, there is no meaning to color values when the opacity is zero. If th= e opacity is non-zero, then the color values are there - just un-multiplied= so they will composite correctly.=20 Photoshop already handles the EXR =E2=80=9CA=E2=80=9D channel (defined in t= he spec as opacity/transparency data) correctly =E2=80=93 it opens it as op= acity/transparency.=20 What the Photoshop EXR plugin does not do is give you a way to open the tra= nsparency channel as an arbitrary alpha channel, or to open channels other = than RGBA.=20 I=E2=80=99m sorry I don=E2=80=99t have a solution for you, but your post so= unded like you were confused about the terminology and what was happening t= o your data (enough so that I still don=E2=80=99t know what=E2=80=99s not w= orking for you with the Photoshop EXR plugin).=20 Chris=20 On 6/4/09 4:23 PM, " [email protected] " < [email protected] > wrote:=20 I'm working on a project that is rendering 32bit floating bit EXR files out= of 3DStudio. I'm then compiling these frames in After Effects in a 32 bit = floating point composite and it's all working fine. The problem I'm having = is that I also need to composite some scenes in Photoshop CS4, and the defa= ult Photoshop EXR plugin is tossing out any data from the image that has a = transparent alpha. I found the Photoshop plugin on the OpenEXR website and = had hopes that it would do what I needed. Thankfully it knows how to handle= the alpha channel properly, but unfortunately the plugin imports the image= into a 16bit integer document and any value above 1.0 is clipped. I can't = use the exposure adjustment to access the over bright details. Because of t= hese import problems I have to run each image through After Effects and do = the exposure processing there, then export an image to Photoshop.=20 Can the maintainer of the OpenEXR photoshop plugin please recompile a new v= ersion that imports images into a 32bit document and maintain the full colo= r range, or provide exposure controls in the plugin? Also, I could use a 64= bit version of the plugin for the 64bit version of Photoshop.=20 Thanks,=20 Ray Collett=20 --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 --=3D=3D-- Ray Collett --=3D=3D--=20 Technical Director; Newlands & Company Inc. www.nc3d.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 _______________________________________________=20 Openexr-user mailing list=20 [email protected]=20 http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/openexr-user=20 --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 --=3D=3D-- Ray Collett --=3D=3D--=20 Technical Director; Newlands & Company Inc. www.nc3d.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 ------=_Part_27865_1433804974.1244244504625 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><style type=3D'text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><= div style=3D'font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'= >Chris,<br>I have read the entire thread about this topic at the Adobe Foru= m (1). It's sad that Photoshop currently discards RGB data of pixels = that have zero opacity. I'm not alone (2,3) in wanting the flexibilit= y in Photoshop to be able to open EXR's/PNG's/etc and have the capability t= o modify/remove the opacity/transparency of an image. I know for a fa= ct that both EXR files (4,5) and PNG files (6) store RGB data when the A ch= annel is set to zero. I personally think that it is a poor decision o= n Adobe's part to assume that opacity/transparency channel should be loaded= into the transparency value without also providing tools to modify that va= lue. If we had some way to paint the transparency back to 1.0 (much t= he same way that you can paint a layers mask), then I don't think that this= would be an issue at all! In my ideal world, the EXR and PNG plugins= would create an RGB layer and load the opacity/transparency data into a la= yer mask.<br><br>As far as my "confusion" between "Alpha Channels" and "Tra= nsparency/Opacity Channels", I'm not a software developer. I'm a user= of commercial software in a professional animation firm. Every appli= cation that I use (7) has the ability to read and/or write RGB information = to every pixel of an EXR/PNG image regardless the value of the alpha/transp= arency channel, EXCEPT Photoshop. The lack of Photoshops ability to a= lso do this makes it a little less useful to me. I find it amazing th= at in order to edit some of my images in an "image editor" (aka Photoshop),= that I must strip the alpha channel using another application. Would= it not make since that Photoshop should be able to read and write any supp= orted image format, and have the written file contain the same data as the = origonal?<br><br>I really appreciate your continued activity on the Adobe F= orum. From my expirence with other topics/products, many embattled de= velopers quickly get flustered and quit monitoring threads like that. = On the other hand, I'm also amazed that you have a large number of users f= rom major VFX/Animation firms (including a co-author of the EXR docs) askin= g for a change, and you're steadfastness aginst them in the name of your in= terptation of technical accuracy.<br><br>I really hope that Photoshop CS5 c= ontains something that will allow us users to edit images in the maner of o= ur choosing. (no matter how wrong we are)<br><br>Thanks!<br>-Ray<br><br>(1)= http://forums.adobe.com/thread/369637<br>(2) http://forums.adobe.com/messa= ge/1536084#1536084<br>(3) http://forums.adobe.com/message/1536077#1536077<b= r>(4) http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/OpenEXR-images/ScanLines/PrismsLen= ses.exr?root=3Dopenexr&view=3Dlog <br>(5) http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/OpenEXR-images/ScanLines/CandleG= lass.exr?root=3Dopenexr&view=3Dlog<br>(6) http://www.nc3d.com/temp/PNG_= With_Alpha_Sample.png<br>(7) 3D Studio Max, Lightwave, SoftImage, VRay, Aft= er Effects, Combustion<br><br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: "Chris = Cox" <[email protected]><br>To: [email protected], "openexr-user" <openexr= [email protected]><br>Sent: Friday, June 5, 2009 3:00:55 PM GMT -08:00 US= /Canada Pacific<br>Subject: Re: [Openexr-user] Photoshop Plugin importing a= s RGB/16 bit<br><br> <title>Re: [Openexr-user] Photoshop Plugin importing as RGB/16 bit</title> <font face=3D"Myriad Pro"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">Again, Photoshop= is a straight color application =E2=80=93 there is no such thing as color = values when the opacity is zero.<br> <br> PNG is also well defined in it=E2=80=99s behavior =E2=80=93 and behaves exa= ctly as the file format specification says it must.<br> TIFF can support alpha channels (which can contain anything) AND transparen= cy/opacity channels. It sounds like you have these confused.<br> <br> Chris<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> On 6/5/09 10:14 AM, "<a href=3D"[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= m</a>" <<a href=3D"[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> = wrote:<br> <br> </span></font><blockquote><font size=3D"4"><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><= span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">Hi Chris,<br> Maybe I didn't explain this well enough. There really is = a couple of issues here. So to explain further, I have an EXR file re= ndered out of 3DStudio in a HDR scene. The scene is a landscape with = buildings, hills, and a sky. The hills and buildings have an alpha of= 1.0, the sky has an alpha of 0.0. The RGB information is not limited= to a 0.0 - 1.0 range... there are some color values that go up into = the 5.0-8.0 range (for example bright reflections on the windows, and the c= olor of the clouds in the sky).<br> <br> If I use the default EXR plugin in CS4 it creates an RGB/32 doc= ument, but the sky comes in 100% transparent. This is great if I don'= t need the sky, but there is color data for the sky in the EXR file. = The sky is blue and there are white clouds. In After Effects I can al= ter the way it deals with the alpha, and I have the choice to ignore the al= pha if I so choose. In Photoshop there are no options to do this. The= EXR plugin is not the only one that does this. The PNG plugin for ex= ample also discards all color data where the alpha is 0.0. The TIFF p= lugin on the other hand puts the alpha information into a sepperate channel= . I can then choose to use that alpha however I wish. Sometimes= it's nice to have the alpha pre-composited with the RGB data the way the P= NG/EXR plugin works, but it would also be nice to have an option somewhere = that modifies how Photoshop deals with alpha in an image. I would lov= e an option in the main program settings that globally modified how all ima= ge importers dealt with the Alpha.<br> <br> Now if I use the plugin on the OpenEXR website, it brings up a = dialog where I can choose to Un-Premultiply, I can change the Gamma, and I = can alter the Exposure. It also places the alpha into a sepperate cha= nnel like the way the TIFF plugin works. I can see my sky and I have = my alpha in a sepperate channel so that I can do with it what I please. &nb= sp;The two problems I have with this plugin is that; 1) It creates an RGB/1= 6 document instead of a RGB/32 which clamps the RGB values and leaves me st= uck with the gamma/exposure settings I selected during import, and 2) There= is no 64bit version of the plugin.<br> <br> To recap, the default EXR plugin needs a user control for how i= t deals with the alpha, and the OpenEXR plugin needs to open the image as a= RGB/32 so that it does not clamp the color values.<br> <br> I hope this posting is more clear.<br> <br> -Ray<br> <br> ----- Original Message -----<br> From: "Chris Cox" <<a href=3D"[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">ccox@ado= be.com</a>><br> To: <a href=3D"[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, <a href=3D= "[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br> Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2009 6:37:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific<br> Subject: Re: [Openexr-user] Photoshop Plugin importing as RGB/16 bit<br> <br> Re: [Openexr-user] Photoshop Plugin importing as RGB/16 bit </span></font><= /font><font face=3D"Myriad Pro"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">Ray;<br> <br> Photoshop is a straight color application, and OpenEXR is defined as being = premultiplied. This means that OpenEXR data has to be un-multiplied b= y the transparency/opacity values to work in Photoshop. To a straight= color application, there is no meaning to color values when the opacity is= zero. If the opacity is non-zero, then the color values are there - = just un-multiplied so they will composite correctly.<br> <br> Photoshop already handles the EXR =E2=80=9CA=E2=80=9D channel (defined in t= he spec as opacity/transparency data) correctly =E2=80=93 it opens it as op= acity/transparency.<br> What the Photoshop EXR plugin does not do is give you a way to open the tra= nsparency channel as an arbitrary alpha channel, or to open channels other = than RGBA.<br> <br> I=E2=80=99m sorry I don=E2=80=99t have a solution for you, but your post so= unded like you were confused about the terminology and what was happening t= o your data (enough so that I still don=E2=80=99t know what=E2=80=99s not w= orking for you with the Photoshop EXR plugin).<br> <br> Chris<br> <br> <br> <br> On 6/4/09 4:23 PM, "<a href=3D"[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= </a>" <<a href=3D"[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> w= rote:<br> <br> </span></font><blockquote><font face=3D"Myriad Pro"><span style=3D"font-siz= e: 10pt;">I'm working on a project that is rendering 32bit floating bit EXR= files out of 3DStudio. I'm then compiling these frames in After Effe= cts in a 32 bit floating point composite and it's all working fine. T= he problem I'm having is that I also need to composite some scenes in Photo= shop CS4, and the default Photoshop EXR plugin is tossing out any data from= the image that has a transparent alpha. I found the Photoshop plugin= on the OpenEXR website and had hopes that it would do what I needed.  = ;Thankfully it knows how to handle the alpha channel properly, but unfortun= ately the plugin imports the image into a 16bit integer document and any va= lue above 1.0 is clipped. I can't use the exposure adjustment to acce= ss the over bright details. Because of these import problems I have t= o run each image through After Effects and do the exposure processing there= , then export an image to Photoshop.<br> <br> Can the maintainer of the OpenEXR photoshop plugin please recompile a new v= ersion that imports images into a 32bit document and maintain the full colo= r range, or provide exposure controls in the plugin? Also, I could us= e a 64bit version of the plugin for the 64bit version of Photoshop.<br> <br> Thanks,<br> Ray Collett<br> <br> --<br> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br> --=3D=3D-- &nbs= p; Ray Collett &= nbsp; --=3D=3D--<br> Technical Director; Newlands & Company Inc. www.nc3d.com<br> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br> <br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> Openexr-user mailing list<br> <a href=3D"[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= rg</a><br> <a href=3D"http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/openexr-user" target=3D= "_blank">http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/openexr-user</a><br> <br> </span></font></blockquote><font size=3D"4"><font face=3D"Times New Roman">= <span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><br> </span></font></font><font face=3D"Myriad Pro"><span style=3D"font-size: 10= pt;"><br> </span></font></blockquote> <br><br>-- <br><font face=3D"Myriad Pro"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br> --=3D=3D-- &nbs= p; Ray Collett &= nbsp; --=3D=3D--<br> Technical Director; Newlands & Company Inc. www.nc3d.com<br> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span></font><br></div></body></html> ------=_Part_27865_1433804974.1244244504625-- --===============0886929400== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Openexr-user mailing list [email protected] http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/openexr-user --===============0886929400==--