Re: Fwd: An Open Letter

"Eric Newcomer [email protected] [rest-discuss]" <[email protected]> Sat, 26 Sep 2015 14:37:05 -0700
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Yes, but unfortunately the article also propagates the mythology of the dev=
eloper as craftsman, and assumes developers need better tools to realize th=
eir designs. It's a mistake to conflate developer and designer roles. That'=
s why the iPod/iPhone/iPad phenomenon is so instructive. The industry will =
be better served through advancing scientific and industrial techniques, su=
ch as those adopted in Lean and Agile methodologies.=C2=A0




Best,


Eric

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From:"mike amundsen [email protected] [rest-discuss]" <rest-discuss-noreply@=
yahoogroups.com>
Date:Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:50 PM
Subject:Re: [rest-discuss] Fwd: An Open Letter

=C2=A0=20

<snip>

=C2=A0designers and developers we still need to know how the code will exec=
ute and impact HW resources.=C2=A0

</snip>


right -- totally agree.=C2=A0


i've read some of Conway's other material on this subject and i think this =
quote is aimed at your point:


"The developer=E2=80=99s productivity is best served by a tool set whose be=
havior throughout the development cycle is strictly consistent with the pri=
nciple that the program being executed is available without delay after eve=
ry change and is identical to the source program entered by the developer."=
[1]


he's posted a preso w/ some additional details, too[2]


there certainly is a challenge to creating this "instant feedback" experien=
ce -- esp. for distributed (Fielding calls them Networked) systems. and i t=
hink that's where the real value will be found.




[1]=C2=A0http://www.melconway.com/Home/Inventor.html

[2]=C2=A0http://melconway.com/Home/pdf/humanize.pdf






mamund

+1.859.757.1449
skype: mca.amundsen
http://amundsen.com/blog/
http://twitter.com/mamund
https://github.com/mamund
http://linkedin.com/in/mamund


On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Eric Newcomer <[email protected]> wrote=
:


I agree with the goal to adapt computers to humans. Today it's the reverse.=
 This seems at the heart of the paper, and a good point.=C2=A0


It's not as if we haven't tried - lots of GUI based 4GLs and code generator=
s have been developed. But they haven't really succeeded.=C2=A0


Perhaps the iPad is the right metaphor for human users. But it doesn't elim=
inate or replace coding. Far from it.=C2=A0


Ultimately I'm unsure the paper frames the question correctly. I would draw=
 more of a distinction between manufacturing and using computers than sugge=
sting we can do a better job of abstracting code. That has not and may not =
work as long as computers themselves are not changed - meaning as designers=
 and developers we still need to know how the code will execute and impact =
HW resources.=C2=A0


Making computers more usable as a result, however, seems to hold significan=
t promise.


Thanks for posting.


Best,


Eric


Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From:"mike amundsen [email protected] [rest-discuss]" <rest-discuss-noreply@=
yahoogroups.com>
Date:Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:09 PM
Subject:[rest-discuss] Fwd: An Open Letter

=C2=A0=20

Thought I'd share this email from Mel Conway (remember Conway' Law?) regard=
ing his current work.


I find the general idea very compelling and would love to see others weigh =
in on this either on twitter (using his hashtag) or even here on the list.


cheers.



mamund

+1.859.757.1449
skype: mca.amundsen
http://amundsen.com/blog/
http://twitter.com/mamund
https://github.com/mamund
http://linkedin.com/in/mamund


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mel Conway <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:19 PM
Subject: An Open Letter
To:=20


To my friends, colleagues, and family:


I=E2=80=99ve just tweeted a link to a new paper:

=E2=80=9CAn Open Letter to the Tech Community: Humanize the Craft of Buildi=
ng Interactive Computer Applications=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0

I invite you to follow me on Twitter at @conways_law or http://twitter.com/=
conways_law .=C2=A0

You can also find the paper at=C2=A0

http://melconway.com/humanize-the-craft.pdf


This five-page paper describes, in almost completely nontechnical terms, wh=
at I have learned during a half-century career of thinking mostly about one=
 problem: simplifying the software-building process. It invites the tech co=
mmunity to think differently about applications so that application buildin=
g can be taught in elementary schools. The paper proposes specific design p=
rinciples for the new craft.=C2=A0


You will read in the first paragraph:

=E2=80=9COver the span of human history the understanding of three importan=
t technologies has migrated from the domains of priests to the domains of e=
lementary school teachers: arithmetic, writing, and the calendar. Now softw=
are technology must join this migration.=E2=80=9D


Then:

=E2=80=9CMy search for a new approach has led me to thinking about building=
 applications, not from what is particular to software, but from what is un=
iversal to humanity.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0


Let=E2=80=99s have a conversation at #HumanizeTheCraft .=C2=A0


My best,


Mel

--=20

Check out=C2=A0Conway's Law

Resume: http://melconway.com/resume.pdf

New mobile number: 978-712-4925






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      <p><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tr><td va=
lign=3D"top"><br>Yes, but unfortunately the article also propagates the myt=
hology of the developer as craftsman, and assumes developers need better to=
ols to realize their designs. It's a mistake to conflate developer and desi=
gner roles. That's why the iPod/iPhone/iPad phenomenon is so instructive. T=
he industry will be better served through advancing scientific and industri=
al techniques, such as those adopted in Lean and Agile methodologies.&nbsp;=
<div id=3D"yMail_cursorElementTracker_0.981720921350643"><br></div><div id=
=3D"yMail_cursorElementTracker_0.981720921350643"><br></div><div id=3D"yMai=
l_cursorElementTracker_0.981720921350643"><br></div><div id=3D"yMail_cursor=
ElementTracker_0.981720921350643">Best,</div><div id=3D"yMail_cursorElement=
Tracker_0.981720921350643"><br></div><div id=3D"yMail_cursorElementTracker_=
0.981720921350643">Eric<br><p><a href=3D"https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mo=
bile/?.src=3DAndroid">Sent
 from Yahoo Mail on Android</a></p> <hr><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpaddin=
g=3D"0" border=3D"0"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign=3D"top"> <div style=3D"font-f=
amily:Roboto, sans-serif;color:#7e7d80;"><b>From</b>:"mike amundsen mamund@=
yahoo.com [rest-discuss]" &lt;[email protected]&gt;<br><=
b>Date</b>:Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:50 PM<br><b>Subject</b>:Re: [rest-discuss=
] Fwd: An Open Letter<br><br></div>=20
<span>&nbsp;</span>


<div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg">
  <div id=3D"ygrp-msg">


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      <p></p><div dir=3D"ltr">&lt;snip&gt;<div><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
8px;">&nbsp;designers and developers we still need to know how the code wil=
l execute and impact HW resources.&nbsp;</span><br clear=3D"none"></div><di=
v><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;">&lt;/snip&gt;</span></div><div><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:12.8px;"><br clear=3D"none"></span></div><div><span style=
=3D"font-size:12.8px;">right -- totally agree.&nbsp;</span></div><div><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.8px;"><br clear=3D"none"></span></div><div><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:12.8px;">i've read some of Conway's other material on this =
subject and i think this quote is aimed at your point:</span></div><br clea=
r=3D"none">"The developer=E2=80=99s productivity is best served by a tool s=
et whose behavior throughout the development cycle is strictly consistent w=
ith the principle that the program being executed is available without dela=
y after every change and is identical to the source program entered by the =
developer."[1]<div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>he's posted a preso w/ som=
e additional details, too[2]</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>there =
certainly is a challenge to creating this "instant feedback" experience -- =
esp. for distributed (Fielding calls them Networked) systems. and i think t=
hat's where the real value will be found.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></di=
v><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>[1]&nbsp=
;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.me=
lconway.com/Home/Inventor.html">http://www.melconway.com/Home/Inventor.html=
</a></div><div>[2]&nbsp;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank=
" href=3D"http://melconway.com/Home/pdf/humanize.pdf">http://melconway.com/=
Home/pdf/humanize.pdf</a></div><div><br clear=3D"none"><div><br clear=3D"no=
ne"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>mamund<div><span><span title=3D"Call with Goo=
gle Voice"><span title=3D"Call with Google Voice">&#43;1.859.757.1449</span=
></span></span><br clear=3D"none">skype: mca.amundsen<br clear=3D"none"><a =
rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://amundsen.c=
om/blog/">http://amundsen.com/blog/</a><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollo=
w" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://twitter.com/mamund">http=
://twitter.com/mamund</a><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"re=
ct" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://github.com/mamund">https://github.com=
/mamund</a><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"=
_blank" href=3D"http://linkedin.com/in/mamund">http://linkedin.com/in/mamun=
d</a></div></div></div></div>
<br clear=3D"none"><div class=3D"yQTDBase yqt0702542041" id=3D"yqt44516"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Eric Newcomer <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:e_n=
[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br clear=3D"none"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;"><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"=
><tbody><tr><td colspan=3D"1" rowspan=3D"1" valign=3D"top"><br clear=3D"non=
e">I agree with the goal to adapt computers to humans. Today it's the rever=
se. This seems at the heart of the paper, and a good point.&nbsp;<div><br c=
lear=3D"none"></div><div>It's not as if we haven't tried - lots of GUI base=
d 4GLs and code generators have been developed. But they haven't really suc=
ceeded.&nbsp;</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Perhaps the iPad is t=
he right metaphor for human users. But it doesn't eliminate or replace codi=
ng. Far
 from it.&nbsp;</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Ultimately I'm unsu=
re the paper frames the question correctly. I would draw more of a distinct=
ion between
 manufacturing and using computers than suggesting we can do a better job o=
f abstracting code. That has not and may not work as long as computers them=
selves are not changed - meaning as designers and developers we still need =
to know how the code will execute and impact HW resources.&nbsp;</div><div>=
<br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Making computers more usable as a result, how=
ever, seems to hold significant promise.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div=
><div>Thanks for posting.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Best,</di=
v><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Eric</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></di=
v><div><p><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http=
s://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=3DAndroid">Sent from Yahoo Mail on=
 Android</a></p> <hr><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0=
"><tbody><tr><td colspan=3D"1" rowspan=3D"1" valign=3D"top"> <div style=3D"=
font-family:Roboto, sans-serif;color:#7e7d80;"><b>From</b>:"mike amundsen <=
a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email protected]" targe=
t=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a> [rest-discuss]" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" s=
hape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email protected]" targe=
t=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none"=
><b>Date</b>:Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:09 PM<br clear=3D"none"><b>Subject</b>:=
[rest-discuss] Fwd: An Open Letter<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></d=
iv>=20
<span>&nbsp;</span>


<div>
  <div><div><div class=3D"h5">


    <div>
=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20
      <p></p><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;">Thought I'd=
 share this email from Mel Conway (remember Conway' Law?) regarding his cur=
rent work.</span><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;"><br clear=3D"none"></div>=
<div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;">I find the general idea very compelling an=
d would love to see others weigh in on this either on twitter (using his ha=
shtag) or even here on the list.</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;"><br =
clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;">cheers.</div><br clea=
r=3D"all"><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>mamund<d=
iv><span><span title=3D"Call with Google Voice"><span title=3D"Call with Go=
ogle Voice"><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect">&#43;1.859.757.1449</a></spa=
n></span></span><br clear=3D"none">skype: mca.amundsen<br clear=3D"none"><a=
 rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://amundsen.=
com/blog/">http://amundsen.com/blog/</a><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofoll=
ow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://twitter.com/mamund">htt=
p://twitter.com/mamund</a><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"r=
ect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://github.com/mamund">https://github.co=
m/mamund</a><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D=
"_blank" href=3D"http://linkedin.com/in/mamund">http://linkedin.com/in/mamu=
nd</a></div></div></div></div>
<br clear=3D"none"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message =
----------<br clear=3D"none">From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Mel Conway=
</b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect">conway.mel@gm=
ail.com</a>&gt;</span><br clear=3D"none">Date: Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:19 P=
M<br clear=3D"none">Subject: An Open Letter<br clear=3D"none">To: <br clear=
=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>=
To my friends, colleagues, and family:</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><=
div>I=E2=80=99ve just tweeted a link to a new paper:</div><div>=E2=80=9CAn =
Open Letter to the Tech Community: Humanize the Craft of Building Interacti=
ve Computer Applications=E2=80=9D.&nbsp;</div><div>I invite you to follow m=
e on Twitter at @conways_law or <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://twitter.com/conways_law">http://twitter.com/conw=
ays_law</a> .&nbsp;</div><div>You can also find the paper at&nbsp;</div><di=
v><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://melco=
nway.com/humanize-the-craft.pdf">http://melconway.com/humanize-the-craft.pd=
f</a></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>This five-page paper describe=
s, in almost completely nontechnical terms, what I have learned during a ha=
lf-century career of thinking mostly about one problem: simplifying the sof=
tware-building process. It invites the tech community to think differently =
about applications so that application building can be taught in elementary=
 schools. The paper proposes specific design principles for the new craft.&=
nbsp;</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>You will read in the first pa=
ragraph:</div><div>=E2=80=9COver the span of human history the understandin=
g of three important technologies has migrated from the domains of priests =
to the domains of
 elementary school teachers: arithmetic, writing, and the calendar. Now sof=
tware technology must join this migration.=E2=80=9D</div><div><br clear=3D"=
none"></div><div>Then:</div><div>=E2=80=9CMy search for a new approach has =
led me to thinking about building applications, not from what is particular=
 to software, but from what is universal to humanity.=E2=80=9D&nbsp;</div><=
div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Let=E2=80=99s have a conversation at #Hum=
anizeTheCraft .&nbsp;</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>My best,</div=
><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Mel</div></div><span><font color=3D"#88=
8888">-- <br clear=3D"none"></font></span><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.6667px=
;">Check out&nbsp;</span><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blan=
k" href=3D"https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dconway%27s+law" style=3D"font-=
size:12.6667px;">Conway's Law</a><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
Resume: <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http:/=
/melconway.com/resume.pdf">http://melconway.com/resume.pdf</a></div></div><=
div>New mobile number: <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect">978-712-4925</a><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div>
</div>
</div><br clear=3D"none"></div>


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