Re: Fwd: An Open Letter
"Keith P Hassen [email protected] [rest-discuss]" <[email protected]> Sat, 26 Sep 2015 21:29:23 +0000
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--089e01538984023d7c0520ad2933 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for sharing. This reminds me of the infamous "Future of Programming" talk given by Bret Victor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8pTEmbeENF4 K On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:50 PM mike amundsen [email protected] [rest-discuss] <[email protected]> wrote: > > > <snip> > > designers and developers we still need to know how the code will execute > and impact HW resources. > > </snip> > > right -- totally agree. > > i've read some of Conway's other material on this subject and i think thi= s > quote is aimed at your point: > > "The developer=E2=80=99s productivity is best served by a tool set whose = behavior > throughout the development cycle is strictly consistent with the principl= e > that the program being executed is available without delay after every > change and is identical to the source program entered by the developer."[= 1] > > he's posted a preso w/ some additional details, too[2] > > there certainly is a challenge to creating this "instant feedback" > experience -- esp. for distributed (Fielding calls them Networked) system= s. > and i think that's where the real value will be found. > > > > [1] http://www.melconway.com/Home/Inventor.html > [2] http://melconway.com/Home/pdf/humanize.pdf > > > > > > mamund > +1.859.757.1449 > skype: mca.amundsen > http://amundsen.com/blog/ > http://twitter.com/mamund > https://github.com/mamund > http://linkedin.com/in/mamund > > On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Eric Newcomer <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> >> I agree with the goal to adapt computers to humans. Today it's the >> reverse. This seems at the heart of the paper, and a good point. >> >> It's not as if we haven't tried - lots of GUI based 4GLs and code >> generators have been developed. But they haven't really succeeded. >> >> Perhaps the iPad is the right metaphor for human users. But it doesn't >> eliminate or replace coding. Far from it. >> >> Ultimately I'm unsure the paper frames the question correctly. I would >> draw more of a distinction between manufacturing and using computers tha= n >> suggesting we can do a better job of abstracting code. That has not and = may >> not work as long as computers themselves are not changed - meaning as >> designers and developers we still need to know how the code will execute >> and impact HW resources. >> >> Making computers more usable as a result, however, seems to hold >> significant promise. >> >> Thanks for posting. >> >> Best, >> >> Eric >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android >> <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=3DAndroid> >> ------------------------------ >> *From*:"mike amundsen [email protected] [rest-discuss]" < >> [email protected]> >> *Date*:Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:09 PM >> *Subject*:[rest-discuss] Fwd: An Open Letter >> >> >> >> Thought I'd share this email from Mel Conway (remember Conway' Law?) >> regarding his current work. >> >> I find the general idea very compelling and would love to see others >> weigh in on this either on twitter (using his hashtag) or even here on t= he >> list. >> >> cheers. >> >> >> mamund >> +1.859.757.1449 >> skype: mca.amundsen >> http://amundsen.com/blog/ >> http://twitter.com/mamund >> https://github.com/mamund >> http://linkedin.com/in/mamund >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Mel Conway <[email protected]> >> Date: Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:19 PM >> Subject: An Open Letter >> To: >> >> >> To my friends, colleagues, and family: >> >> I=E2=80=99ve just tweeted a link to a new paper: >> =E2=80=9CAn Open Letter to the Tech Community: Humanize the Craft of Bui= lding >> Interactive Computer Applications=E2=80=9D. >> I invite you to follow me on Twitter at @conways_law or >> http://twitter.com/conways_law . >> You can also find the paper at >> http://melconway.com/humanize-the-craft.pdf >> >> This five-page paper describes, in almost completely nontechnical terms, >> what I have learned during a half-century career of thinking mostly abou= t >> one problem: simplifying the software-building process. It invites the t= ech >> community to think differently about applications so that application >> building can be taught in elementary schools. The paper proposes specifi= c >> design principles for the new craft. >> >> You will read in the first paragraph: >> =E2=80=9COver the span of human history the understanding of three impor= tant >> technologies has migrated from the domains of priests to the domains of >> elementary school teachers: arithmetic, writing, and the calendar. Now >> software technology must join this migration.=E2=80=9D >> >> Then: >> =E2=80=9CMy search for a new approach has led me to thinking about build= ing >> applications, not from what is particular to software, but from what is >> universal to humanity.=E2=80=9D >> >> Let=E2=80=99s have a conversation at #HumanizeTheCraft . >> >> My best, >> >> Mel >> -- >> Check out Conway's Law <https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dconway%27s+law= > >> Resume: http://melconway.com/resume.pdf >> New mobile number: 978-712-4925 >> >> >=20 > --089e01538984023d7c0520ad2933 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/htm= l4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> =20 <body style=3D"background-color: #fff;"> <span style=3D"display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"position:relative;"> <div id=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-text" > =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 <p><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thanks for sharing.=C2=A0 This reminds me of= the infamous "Future of Programming" talk given by Bret Victor: = <a href=3D"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8pTEmbeENF4">https://www.youtu= be.com/watch?v=3D8pTEmbeENF4</a><br><br></div>K<br><br></div><br><div class= =3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:50 PM mike amun= dsen <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> [rest-discuss= ] <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">rest-discuss-= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_= quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid;"> <u></u> =20 <div style=3D"background-color:#fff;"> <span>=C2=A0</span> <div> <div> <div> =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 <p><div dir=3D"ltr"><snip></div></p></div></div></div></div><di= v style=3D"background-color:#fff;"><div><div><div><p><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>= <span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;">=C2=A0designers and developers we still n= eed to know how the code will execute and impact HW resources.=C2=A0</span>= <br></div></div></p></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"background-color:= #fff;"><div><div><div><p><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.= 8px;"></snip></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;"><br>= </span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;">right -- totally agree.= =C2=A0</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;"><br></span></div>= <div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;">i've read some of Conway's o= ther material on this subject and i think this quote is aimed at your point= :</span></div><br>"The developer=E2=80=99s productivity is best served= by a tool set whose behavior throughout the development cycle is strictly = consistent with the principle that the program being executed is available = without delay after every change and is identical to the source program ent= ered by the developer."[1]<div><br></div><div>he's posted a preso = w/ some additional details, too[2]</div><div><br></div><div>there certainly= is a challenge to creating this "instant feedback" experience --= esp. for distributed (Fielding calls them Networked) systems. and i think = that's where the real value will be found.</div><div><br></div><div><br= ></div><div><br></div><div>[1]=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.melconway.com/Hom= e/Inventor.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.melconway.com/Home/Inventor.h= tml</a></div><div>[2]=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://melconway.com/Home/pdf/humaniz= e.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://melconway.com/Home/pdf/humanize.pdf</a></di= v><div><br><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ex= tra"></div></p></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"background-color:#fff;= "><div><div><div><p><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div>= <div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div>mamund<div><span><span title=3D"Call with G= oogle Voice"><span title=3D"Call with Google Voice">+1.859.757.1449</sp= an></span></span><br>skype: mca.amundsen<br><a href=3D"http://amundsen.com/= blog/" target=3D"_blank">http://amundsen.com/blog/</a><br><a href=3D"http:/= /twitter.com/mamund" target=3D"_blank">http://twitter.com/mamund</a><br><a = href=3D"https://github.com/mamund" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/mam= und</a><br><a href=3D"http://linkedin.com/in/mamund" target=3D"_blank">http= ://linkedin.com/in/mamund</a></div></div></div></div> <br></div></p></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"background-color:#fff;"= ><div><div><div><p><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On= Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Eric Newcomer <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href= =3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>= ></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-lef= t:1px #ccc solid;"><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">= <tbody><tr><td valign=3D"top"><br>I agree with the goal to adapt computers = to humans. Today it's the reverse. This seems at the heart of the paper= , and a good point.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>It's not as if we haven= 9;t tried - lots of GUI based 4GLs and code generators have been developed.= But they haven't really succeeded.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Perh= aps the iPad is the right metaphor for human users. But it doesn't elim= inate or replace coding. Far from it.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Ultima= tely I'm unsure the paper frames the question correctly. I would draw m= ore of a distinction between manufacturing and using computers than suggesting we can do a better job o= f abstracting code. That has not and may not work as long as computers them= selves are not changed - meaning as designers and developers we still need = to know how the code will execute and impact HW resources.=C2=A0</div><div>= <br></div><div>Making computers more usable as a result, however, seems to = hold significant promise.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for posting.</div= ><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Eric</div><div><br></di= v><div><p><a href=3D"https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=3DAndroid= " target=3D"_blank">Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android</a></p> <hr><table cell= spacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign=3D"to= p"> <div style=3D"font-family:Roboto,sans-serif;color:#7e7d80;"><b>From</b>= :"mike amundsen <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">= [email protected]</a> [rest-discuss]" <<a href=3D"mailto:rest-discus= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">rest-discuss-noreply@yahoogrou= ps.com</a>><br><b>Date</b>:Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:09 PM<br><b>Subject</b= >:[rest-discuss] Fwd: An Open Letter<br><br></div>=20 <span>=C2=A0</span> <div> <div><div><div> <div> =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 <p></p><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;">Thought I&#= 39;d share this email from Mel Conway (remember Conway' Law?) regarding= his current work.</span><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;"><br clear=3D"none= "></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;">I find the general idea very compe= lling and would love to see others weigh in on this either on twitter (usin= g his hashtag) or even here on the list.</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8p= x;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;">cheers.</div>= <br clear=3D"all"><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>= mamund<div><span><span title=3D"Call with Google Voice"><span title=3D"Call= with Google Voice"><a href=3D"tel:%2B1.859.757.1449" value=3D"+18597571449= " target=3D"_blank">+1.859.757.1449</a></span></span></span><br clear= =3D"none">skype: mca.amundsen<br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape= =3D"rect" href=3D"http://amundsen.com/blog/" target=3D"_blank">http://amund= sen.com/blog/</a><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href= =3D"http://twitter.com/mamund" target=3D"_blank">http://twitter.com/mamund<= /a><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://gi= thub.com/mamund" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/mamund</a><br clear= =3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://linkedin.com/in= /mamund" target=3D"_blank">http://linkedin.com/in/mamund</a></div></div></d= iv></div> <br clear=3D"none"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message = ----------<br clear=3D"none">From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Mel Conway= </b> <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect">conway.mel@gm= ail.com</a>></span><br clear=3D"none">Date: Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:19 P= M<br clear=3D"none">Subject: An Open Letter<br clear=3D"none">To: <br clear= =3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>= To my friends, colleagues, and family:</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><= div>I=E2=80=99ve just tweeted a link to a new paper:</div><div>=E2=80=9CAn = Open Letter to the Tech Community: Humanize the Craft of Building Interacti= ve Computer Applications=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0</div><div>I invite you to follow m= e on Twitter at @conways_law or <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"= http://twitter.com/conways_law" target=3D"_blank">http://twitter.com/conway= s_law</a> .=C2=A0</div><div>You can also find the paper at=C2=A0</div><div>= <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://melconway.com/humanize-th= e-craft.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://melconway.com/humanize-the-craft.pdf<= /a></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>This five-page paper describes,= in almost completely nontechnical terms, what I have learned during a half= -century career of thinking mostly about one problem: simplifying the softw= are-building process. It invites the tech community to think differently ab= out applications so that application building can be taught in elementary s= chools. The paper proposes specific design principles for the new craft.=C2= =A0</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>You will read in the first para= graph:</div><div>=E2=80=9COver the span of human history the understanding = of three important technologies has migrated from the domains of priests to= the domains of elementary school teachers: arithmetic, writing, and the calendar. Now sof= tware technology must join this migration.=E2=80=9D</div><div><br clear=3D"= none"></div><div>Then:</div><div>=E2=80=9CMy search for a new approach has = led me to thinking about building applications, not from what is particular= to software, but from what is universal to humanity.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0</div><= div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Let=E2=80=99s have a conversation at #Hum= anizeTheCraft .=C2=A0</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>My best,</div= ><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Mel</div></div><span><font color=3D"#88= 8888">-- <br clear=3D"none"></font></span><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div d= ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l= tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di= v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.6667px= ;">Check out=C2=A0</span><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https:/= /www.google.com/search?q=3Dconway%27s+law" style=3D"font-size:12.6667px;" t= arget=3D"_blank">Conway's Law</a><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"l= tr">Resume: <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://melconway.com= /resume.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://melconway.com/resume.pdf</a></div></d= iv><div>New mobile number: <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect">978-712-4925<= /a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>= </div></div></div> </div> </div><br clear=3D"none"></div> </div> =20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20 </div></div><div style=3D"color:#fff;min-height:0;"></div></div> </div></td> </tr> </tbody> </table></div></td></tr></tbody></table></b= lockquote></div><br></div></p></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"backgro= und-color:#fff;"><div><div><div><p><div class=3D"gmail_extra"></div> </p> </div> =20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20 <div style=3D"color:#fff;min-height:0;"></div> </div> =20=20 </div></div></blockquote></div> </p> </div> =20=20=20=20=20 <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20 =20 =20=20=20=20 <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <div id=3D"fromDMARC" style=3D"margin-top: 10px;"> <hr style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background= -color:#E3E3E3;"> Posted by: Keith P Hassen <[email protected]> <hr= style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E= 3E3;"> </div> <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <table cellspacing=3D4px style=3D"margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px= ; color: #2D50FD;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bo= ld; padding: 7px 5px 5px;" > <a style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD= " href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/rest-discuss/conversations/me= ssages/19727;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJxZmQ4cWlqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQzMTkyNTUEZ3J= wc3BJZAMxNzA1NzAxMDE0BG1zZ0lkAzE5NzI3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTQ0Mz= MwMzAwNQ--?act=3Dreply&messageNum=3D19727">Reply via web post</a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; 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