Re: VIDEO: Simplifying Plone with tiles and shortcodes

Dylan / Martin:

thanks you for your comments and clarifications but I'm still not 
convinced at all. I want to go back a little bit to bring some other 
stuff to your attention so we don't lose the focus on what we need to 
work on:

first, according to Eric's post what you're proposing is not in the 
roadmap for Plone 5:

http://willrantforbeer.com/post/52975919723/plone-5

(and BTW, Eric's original estimation on Plone 5 seems to have proven 
overoptimistic).

second, the PLIP title states one thing (Remove default pages via 
tiles), the proposal involves many other (Remove the concepts of Folder, 
collection and default page from Plone) and the implications and risks 
are not clear for me; I think you're mixing too much stuff and that's 
dangerous.

let's dig a little bit further: the video mentions Limi's proposal from 
2008 to simplify Plone's editing experience; I couldn't find any of the 
things you want to change there:

http://limi.net/articles/simplify-plones-editing-experience/

the PLIP clearly states "This is partial step towards the full Deco 
implementation" and I say no, this is an ugly monkey patch that, IMO if 
implemented in Plone's core, is going to backfire us in the future when 
we really want to implement Deco.

Let's go to the risks now:

you say "Incorporating tiles within tinymce without more use of 
collective.tinymcetiles poses some risk"; I ask, which risk?

you say "Tiles themselves have been used in production via 
collective.cover however there could still be some risks involved"; I 
ask again, which risks?

you say "There might existing other functionality that will be lost 
hasn’t yet been considered"; then I think we must think more on this: 
unexpected consequences could be worst than the issue you want to solve.

you say "Caching settings have different rules for folderish and 
content-ish types"; I think this is a huge issue.

I'm not negating that there are a few use cases for this, but I'm 
worried about the implementation and its implications.

third, the folder metaphor is more than 30-years old and it's widely 
used all over the world: I can't think of a single OS that doesn't use 
it; I can't think of a computer user not being familiar with it.

if the default page concept is causing problems, which it is, we should 
think on how to solve those problems but not by removing the feature and 
creating other problems (BTW, I can think on a worst issue involving 
context portlets).

are you aware of TYPO3 and Liferay usage of folders? the later is really 
funny when you think how they are marketing this new (for them) feature 
present in Plone from the very beginning:

"It's much easier to organize web content than it ever was before. 
Liferay Portal 6.2 introduces web content folders. You can now create 
folders and sub-folders for web content the same way you can create them 
for Documents and Media."

https://www.liferay.com/pt/documentation/liferay-portal/6.2/release-notes

so they're including folders and we're going to remove them? they want 
to be like Plone and we want to be like WordPress? really?

fourth, I think you're missing the point of where is Plone positioned: 
we're are not competing with WordPress neither Google Sites so bringing 
those concepts to Plone is a big mistake as we're going to lose what 
makes us powerful: flexibility. have you seen big government sites or 
intranets successfully made with those tools? I don't.

Plone is an enterprise-level CMS and should be marketed like that; 
nevertheless, Plone can be used successfully as an entry-level CMS as 
it's right now.

(BTW, is the marketing committee working at all?)

last but not least, I'm not against change... if it's for good; I still 
think this is not th case here and this need to be delayed and further 
discussed with a wider audience.

I think we should be working on Deco's layout editor and on Plone's 
standard tiles. both things can be further tested on collective.cover 
and we can learn from that; then we can think on moving those things to 
the core.

best regards

Héctor Velarde

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