Re: VIDEO: Simplifying Plone with tiles and shortcodes

Héctor,

First of all, I only provided some historical context, rather
dispassionately.

Second of all, this is a tirade of stop energy, and you're making a ton of
assumptions about what Dylan is thinking and saying.

My suggestion: let's try this concept out in an add-on product (which is
easy to do), test it on some real users, and submit a proper PLIP for it
when it's ready. Or do something different if we discover that it's not the
right way to go about it.

If you're asking my opinion, I believe in the UI model that the "full" Deco
proposal outlined. I think it can work and I think it might make Plone one
of the best web CMSs out there for editors. However, I have very little
faith in the Plone's community's willingness to realise that vision at this
stage, for the simple fact that it's 8-9 years later and we're still not
much closer. I think neither collective.cover (because it has an explicit
layout mode and because it relies on intermediary base classes for tiles),
nor the shortcode proposal (which incorporates magical markup rather than
being WYSIWYG) achieves the vision. However, both have the potential to
solve real world problems for real world users as add-on products, which
deserves respect and encouragement.

Martin


On 24 March 2014 21:27, Héctor Velarde <[email protected]> wrote:

> Dylan / Martin:
>
> thanks you for your comments and clarifications but I'm still not
> convinced at all. I want to go back a little bit to bring some other stuff
> to your attention so we don't lose the focus on what we need to work on:
>
> first, according to Eric's post what you're proposing is not in the
> roadmap for Plone 5:
>
> http://willrantforbeer.com/post/52975919723/plone-5
>
> (and BTW, Eric's original estimation on Plone 5 seems to have proven
> overoptimistic).
>
> second, the PLIP title states one thing (Remove default pages via tiles),
> the proposal involves many other (Remove the concepts of Folder, collection
> and default page from Plone) and the implications and risks are not clear
> for me; I think you're mixing too much stuff and that's dangerous.
>
> let's dig a little bit further: the video mentions Limi's proposal from
> 2008 to simplify Plone's editing experience; I couldn't find any of the
> things you want to change there:
>
> http://limi.net/articles/simplify-plones-editing-experience/
>
> the PLIP clearly states "This is partial step towards the full Deco
> implementation" and I say no, this is an ugly monkey patch that, IMO if
> implemented in Plone's core, is going to backfire us in the future when we
> really want to implement Deco.
>
> Let's go to the risks now:
>
> you say "Incorporating tiles within tinymce without more use of
> collective.tinymcetiles poses some risk"; I ask, which risk?
>
> you say "Tiles themselves have been used in production via
> collective.cover however there could still be some risks involved"; I ask
> again, which risks?
>
> you say "There might existing other functionality that will be lost hasn't
> yet been considered"; then I think we must think more on this: unexpected
> consequences could be worst than the issue you want to solve.
>
> you say "Caching settings have different rules for folderish and
> content-ish types"; I think this is a huge issue.
>
> I'm not negating that there are a few use cases for this, but I'm worried
> about the implementation and its implications.
>
> third, the folder metaphor is more than 30-years old and it's widely used
> all over the world: I can't think of a single OS that doesn't use it; I
> can't think of a computer user not being familiar with it.
>
> if the default page concept is causing problems, which it is, we should
> think on how to solve those problems but not by removing the feature and
> creating other problems (BTW, I can think on a worst issue involving
> context portlets).
>
> are you aware of TYPO3 and Liferay usage of folders? the later is really
> funny when you think how they are marketing this new (for them) feature
> present in Plone from the very beginning:
>
> "It's much easier to organize web content than it ever was before. Liferay
> Portal 6.2 introduces web content folders. You can now create folders and
> sub-folders for web content the same way you can create them for Documents
> and Media."
>
> https://www.liferay.com/pt/documentation/liferay-portal/6.2/release-notes
>
> so they're including folders and we're going to remove them? they want to
> be like Plone and we want to be like WordPress? really?
>
> fourth, I think you're missing the point of where is Plone positioned:
> we're are not competing with WordPress neither Google Sites so bringing
> those concepts to Plone is a big mistake as we're going to lose what makes
> us powerful: flexibility. have you seen big government sites or intranets
> successfully made with those tools? I don't.
>
> Plone is an enterprise-level CMS and should be marketed like that;
> nevertheless, Plone can be used successfully as an entry-level CMS as it's
> right now.
>
> (BTW, is the marketing committee working at all?)
>
> last but not least, I'm not against change... if it's for good; I still
> think this is not th case here and this need to be delayed and further
> discussed with a wider audience.
>
> I think we should be working on Deco's layout editor and on Plone's
> standard tiles. both things can be further tested on collective.cover and
> we can learn from that; then we can think on moving those things to the
> core.
>
> best regards
>
> Héctor Velarde
>
>
>

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