Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

In moving things to the tracker I'd really like shift us as a community
from focusing solutions in these tickets and discussions to user problems.
For example hector has brought up some really important usability issues
with the vertical toolbar but approached it with mostly a solution in mind
(use horizontal). I notice many of our other tickets also are titled by the
feature to implement rather than the problem they solve. What I've noticed
over time is the reasons can get lost in the implementation process and in
many cases the feature gets implemented even when the problem has gone away
or gets implemented in a way that doesn't solve the problem. I've noticed
this with tickets within our own company as well as plone.
With this in mind I've been raising UX tickets with plone in the following
format.

Title: too much mouse to get to 2nd level vertical toolbar menu

User problem:
The user has to move down to click to open a second level then travel to up
top of that list in many cases such as adding a new page. Less movement is
better.

Internal:
Currently the toolbar works horizontally and vertically and uses the same
markup for each.

Options:
1. Use horizontal menu with vertical drop downs.
2. Have a single combined 2nd level that can be always visible
3. Start 2nd level vertical menus at the click point so you just move
across and down
4. Use a vertical open close accordion style menu so the move continues to
travel down.

The idea of the internal section is to ensure the user problem is described
without reference to internal considerations. If the end user can't
understand but it affects the problem or possible solutions then it goes in
internal.
On 26 May 2015 20:24, "T. Kim Nguyen" <nguyen-z4DKO/[email protected]> wrote:

> All right... Let's maybe take this off the mailing list and onto the issue
> tracker? We are clearly not going to stop working on Plone 5 :) and we are
> so close we are hoping to release this fall, at least this is what the
> launch team is planning for.
>
>     Kim
>
> On May 26, 2015, at 8:12 AM, Nathan Van Gheem <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I would also like to add that no UI is perfect. There will be compromises
> for every decision we make.
>
> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 7:57 AM, Nathan Van Gheem <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hector, this is not something we just decided to do overnight. The
>> toolbar ideas have been floating around, discussed, show and worked on with
>> stake holders, etc for probably 3 years now. CMSUI was the start of it.
>>
>> The Plone 4 UI wasn't great either and has many deficiencies. You and
>> your users were just used to it.
>>
>> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Hector Velarde <[email protected]
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> I made a compilation to avoid spamming you with my opinions.
>>>
>>> On 05/26/2015 12:34 AM, Dylan Jay wrote:
>>>  > Looks like hectors points are mostly about making current status
>>> visible.
>>>
>>> HV> no, those are just the most obvious issues and the other you
>>> mention, the distance the mouse pointer has to travel from one click to
>>> another, is also an issue that I had already noticed from the first time
>>> I used the vertical toolbar.
>>>
>>> On 05/26/2015 01:02 AM, T. Kim Nguyen wrote:
>>>  > Let people choose, even if you think one is better than the other.
>>> Even > on Mac OS we can choose where to put the dock.
>>>
>>> HV> +1
>>>
>>> On 05/26/2015 01:03 AM, Nathan Van Gheem wrote:
>>>  > It's not that simple. If providing both OOTB makes both less good, it
>>>  > might not be a good idea to try and support both.
>>>
>>> HV> and that's why huge UI/UX changes should have been done in a
>>> different way, letting people testing them in Plone 4.3 as add-ons, for
>>> instance.
>>>
>>> my point here, Nathan, is that we have to avoid this kind of issues in
>>> the future.
>>>
>>> we created this impasse when we decided to start running in search of
>>> Plone 5 instead of walking fast: we opened too many fronts; we were
>>> overwhelmed; we didn't get the feedback in time and when we got it, we
>>> were unable to adjust to it.
>>>
>>> complex systems are non-linear and you need shorter feedback loops on
>>> them; Plone is a complex system.
>>>
>>> On 05/26/2015 07:06 AM, Ramon Navarro Bosch wrote:
>>>  > * Most wide screens are used , so more usage of the browser space
>>>
>>> HV> then the liquidness of the current theme must be fixed:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/issues/528
>>>
>>>  > * On mobile the actual implementation ( a bit buggy but it should be
>>>  > easy to solve ) needs to be vertical also so for using the same order
>>>  > and make it easy to find options was good to maintain the vertical
>>>  > toolbar on desktop
>>>
>>> HV> IMO, that's not a valid point as most content creators use desktop
>>> computers, and most content consumers use mobile devices:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.datamation.com/mobile-wireless/online-content-consumption-shifting-from-pcs-to-tablets.html
>>>
>>>  > It was more than one year ago, talking with rok about it that would be
>>>  > great to have this option, the experience of other cms systems using
>>>  > vertical bar and the reasons I pointed out made us decide to offer a
>>>  > toolbar that has left vertical default behavior, with the option to
>>> put
>>>  > on top.
>>>
>>> HV> I personally don't know in depth the content creation story of other
>>> CMS, but I know the one on social networks and I already mentioned that
>>> in a previous post, so my vision is limited here.
>>>
>>> on the other side, what I remember from having seen other CMS content
>>> creation process is that it happens totally isolated from the final
>>> viewing experience.
>>>
>>> last week we were demonstrating Plone for a new customer who is moving
>>> away from Joomla! and they were really pleasured when they saw editing
>>> not in a totally different screen, but in the same site layout.
>>>
>>>  > On the other hand, we now have three production big plone 5 sites (
>>> and
>>>  > some small ) and the users have never complained about it, most of
>>> them
>>>
>>> HV> good to hear that, but we need more feedback: what's the goal of the
>>> site? what kind of content they are creating? were they using Plone 4
>>> before? for how long? what do they like about the new interface? what do
>>> they dislike? how they compare with the previous one? we need
>>> UX/usability studies to evaluate the whole story.
>>>
>>>  > the left, some ideas like showing byline on the content area is a
>>> matter
>>>  > of skinning depending on the site.
>>>
>>> HV> it's the current default behavior and, as I already pointed out,
>>> we're changing too many things on the UX.
>>>
>>> in the kind of sites we create (mainly news sites and government sites)
>>> this behavior is the standard.
>>>
>>> On 05/26/2015 05:41 AM, Paul Roeland wrote:
>>> > but let's at least wait for a bit more diversity in opinion: in two and
>>> > a half weeks, Plone Symposium Tokyo takes place, perfect time to ask
>>> > users and developers what their opinion is; it may be less arbitrary
>>> > when your script runs not LTR. Then again, it may be, but let's ask.
>>>
>>> HV> +1
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nathan Van Gheem
>> Solutions Architect
>> Wildcard Corp
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Nathan Van Gheem
> Solutions Architect
> Wildcard Corp
>
>
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> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
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