Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

All right... Let's maybe take this off the mailing list and onto the issue tracker? We are clearly not going to stop working on Plone 5 :) and we are so close we are hoping to release this fall, at least this is what the launch team is planning for.

    Kim

> On May 26, 2015, at 8:12 AM, Nathan Van Gheem <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> I would also like to add that no UI is perfect. There will be compromises for every decision we make.
> 
>> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 7:57 AM, Nathan Van Gheem <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Hector, this is not something we just decided to do overnight. The toolbar ideas have been floating around, discussed, show and worked on with stake holders, etc for probably 3 years now. CMSUI was the start of it.
>> 
>> The Plone 4 UI wasn't great either and has many deficiencies. You and your users were just used to it. 
>> 
>>> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Hector Velarde <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I made a compilation to avoid spamming you with my opinions.
>>> 
>>> On 05/26/2015 12:34 AM, Dylan Jay wrote:
>>>  > Looks like hectors points are mostly about making current status visible.
>>> 
>>> HV> no, those are just the most obvious issues and the other you
>>> mention, the distance the mouse pointer has to travel from one click to
>>> another, is also an issue that I had already noticed from the first time
>>> I used the vertical toolbar.
>>> 
>>> On 05/26/2015 01:02 AM, T. Kim Nguyen wrote:
>>>  > Let people choose, even if you think one is better than the other.
>>> Even > on Mac OS we can choose where to put the dock.
>>> 
>>> HV> +1
>>> 
>>> On 05/26/2015 01:03 AM, Nathan Van Gheem wrote:
>>>  > It's not that simple. If providing both OOTB makes both less good, it
>>>  > might not be a good idea to try and support both.
>>> 
>>> HV> and that's why huge UI/UX changes should have been done in a
>>> different way, letting people testing them in Plone 4.3 as add-ons, for
>>> instance.
>>> 
>>> my point here, Nathan, is that we have to avoid this kind of issues in
>>> the future.
>>> 
>>> we created this impasse when we decided to start running in search of
>>> Plone 5 instead of walking fast: we opened too many fronts; we were
>>> overwhelmed; we didn't get the feedback in time and when we got it, we
>>> were unable to adjust to it.
>>> 
>>> complex systems are non-linear and you need shorter feedback loops on
>>> them; Plone is a complex system.
>>> 
>>> On 05/26/2015 07:06 AM, Ramon Navarro Bosch wrote:
>>>  > * Most wide screens are used , so more usage of the browser space
>>> 
>>> HV> then the liquidness of the current theme must be fixed:
>>> 
>>> https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/issues/528
>>> 
>>>  > * On mobile the actual implementation ( a bit buggy but it should be
>>>  > easy to solve ) needs to be vertical also so for using the same order
>>>  > and make it easy to find options was good to maintain the vertical
>>>  > toolbar on desktop
>>> 
>>> HV> IMO, that's not a valid point as most content creators use desktop
>>> computers, and most content consumers use mobile devices:
>>> 
>>> http://www.datamation.com/mobile-wireless/online-content-consumption-shifting-from-pcs-to-tablets.html
>>> 
>>>  > It was more than one year ago, talking with rok about it that would be
>>>  > great to have this option, the experience of other cms systems using
>>>  > vertical bar and the reasons I pointed out made us decide to offer a
>>>  > toolbar that has left vertical default behavior, with the option to put
>>>  > on top.
>>> 
>>> HV> I personally don't know in depth the content creation story of other
>>> CMS, but I know the one on social networks and I already mentioned that
>>> in a previous post, so my vision is limited here.
>>> 
>>> on the other side, what I remember from having seen other CMS content
>>> creation process is that it happens totally isolated from the final
>>> viewing experience.
>>> 
>>> last week we were demonstrating Plone for a new customer who is moving
>>> away from Joomla! and they were really pleasured when they saw editing
>>> not in a totally different screen, but in the same site layout.
>>> 
>>>  > On the other hand, we now have three production big plone 5 sites ( and
>>>  > some small ) and the users have never complained about it, most of them
>>> 
>>> HV> good to hear that, but we need more feedback: what's the goal of the
>>> site? what kind of content they are creating? were they using Plone 4
>>> before? for how long? what do they like about the new interface? what do
>>> they dislike? how they compare with the previous one? we need
>>> UX/usability studies to evaluate the whole story.
>>> 
>>>  > the left, some ideas like showing byline on the content area is a matter
>>>  > of skinning depending on the site.
>>> 
>>> HV> it's the current default behavior and, as I already pointed out,
>>> we're changing too many things on the UX.
>>> 
>>> in the kind of sites we create (mainly news sites and government sites)
>>> this behavior is the standard.
>>> 
>>> On 05/26/2015 05:41 AM, Paul Roeland wrote:
>>> > but let's at least wait for a bit more diversity in opinion: in two and
>>> > a half weeks, Plone Symposium Tokyo takes place, perfect time to ask
>>> > users and developers what their opinion is; it may be less arbitrary
>>> > when your script runs not LTR. Then again, it may be, but let's ask.
>>> 
>>> HV> +1
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Nathan Van Gheem
>> Solutions Architect
>> Wildcard Corp
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Nathan Van Gheem
> Solutions Architect
> Wildcard Corp
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