Re:

Your argument holds some water..but let me tell a quick
true story.
There was a job here a while back that the company wanted
to pay bottom dollar for a good dotnet person. A recruiter
called me about the position. I told the recruiter no
way..not for that price.. and the recruiter said "I know..
I actually told them to increase their rate because they
wont get anyone half decent for what they want"

If I was a company hiring I would hope the recruiter would
tell me what I would get for that price rather than just
saying "sure!!! no problem.. Ill find you someone!"

In the case of the posting to this list...I would think the
recruiter would tell the company that chances are they wont
find anyone with a good skill set for that price, otherwise
it seems like the recruiter is just being the equiv. of
what common society sees an slimy attorney (not saying all
attorneys are slimy,... im saying a slimy attorney).. in
the sense that they will find anyone for the price
regardless of their skills.

Ive seen recruiters place complete idiots on positions for
job because they would work for a lesser rate, and in the
end the entire job was botched, making the recruiter look
bad and costing the company more because it had to be
redone by someone with a decent skillset.




On Mon, 9 Jun 2003 09:55:13 -0400
 "Jeremy J. Thornton" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Rahul and company,
>     I am failing to see the rational behind blaming
> recruiters for
> rates.  I obviously am a recruiter.  Let me try to
> explain, have you
> ever seen those pictures where depending on how you look
> at it it could
> either be an old woman or a young woman (psychologist use
> them to
> determine how people view things).  While you see the
> young lady in the
> picture, I see the old woman.  It is the same way with
> rates.  Your
> viewpoint is what you get paid, and my view point is what
> a company
> allows us to charge.  We are not looking at the same
> thing, thus we will
> never agree on what is really the issue here.  Companies
> set the rates
> in the industry, not recruiters.  We obviously have a job
> to do as well
> and deserve to be paid for those services, just as you
> deserve to be
> paid for what you do.
>     Anyway I just wanted to point out that there are
> recruiters, like
> myself, that try to take care of our consultants and that
> means that
> they get paid fairly.  The honest truth is that the bad
> economy has
> triggered a power shift and now most companies are
> calling the shots.
>
> "Guha, Rahul" wrote:
>
> > This is an interesting discussion ? although thought
> NOT to join this
> > because essentially this is NOT a discussion forum but
> a job posting
> > thread ? but can?t resist the temptation. Here are my
> two cents:
> >
> > 1.In my opinion, we all are experiencing a subtle but
> interesting
> > shift in software development philosophy. The Companies
> are moving
> > away from developing custom software and skewing
> towards buying off
> > the shelf products and customize them per their
> requirements. This is
> > terrible for people like us (who do in house
> development) ? but
> > probably from company?s perspective it is useful.
> Nowadays most of the
> > functional business requirements are been catered by
> some kind of
> > software packages and they come for pretty less price.
> That obviously
> > lure the companies. But in many cases, there are hidden
> cost of
> > Consultant Hours and other charges which finally drive
> up the TCO.
> > Which one finally pays off ?? Not sure .. but surely
> this reduces the
> > requirement of very highly skilled in-house s/w
> developers for many of
> > the requirements. It boils down to integrating between
> pieces of
> > components which although not trivial ? but in most
> cases doesn?t need
> > huge architecture / design type work. That?s why my
> nine years of OO
> > experience probably become little bit ?over
> qualification? for such
> > work. Add recent trend of off-shoring various
> development jobs.
> >
> > Probably skills are moving towards product development
> companies who
> > deliver these tools.
> >
> > 2.Resume? manipulation was always a problem and I have
> seen it for H1
> > and non-H1s ? It?s a question of attitude ? H1s had
> their contribution
> > in developing this economy as well as internet boom in
> late nineties.
> > They were part of lots of phenomenal development
> initiatives. And
> > there are abuses too. But if you look through ? people
> who always made
> > money out of it was the recruiters and the sweat shops
> ? We all know
> > the usual ratio of the recruiting job shops use to make
> and to their
> > H1s were paid (it use to be around 60 to 40 ratio) ?
> And ? they were
> > NOT H1s ?
> >
> > The only point I want to make is ? we all should be
> very much aware of
> > these recruiters who make their living out of somebody
> else?s
> > intellectual asset and almost control the price of that
> at their
> > will.
> >
> > I think it is outrageous to ask for Tech. Lead for
> VS.Net in NYC for
> > 50K per year ?
> >
> > I am still waiting to see his rationale (if there is
> any) and comments
> > on that ?
> >
> > Rahul Guha
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bob Coward [mailto:[email protected]]
> > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 9:15 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> >
> > Reply,
> >
> > I'll agree with Larry but a business movement is the
> last thing we
> > will see
> >
> > (IMHO).Companies maintain H1B relationships and others
> because of the
> >
> > corporate tax liability...basically there is none.To
> conduct business
> > this
> >
> > way only exploits and overcasts the bottom line the
> companies report
> > because
> >
> > the taxes not paid are transferred as earnings.This is
> the legal
> > loophole
> >
> > that Enron, WorldCom, and others tried to exploit to
> pad their bottom
> > line.
> >
> > But it is conclusive that the practice of hiring less
> than capable
> >
> > programmers will cause a rift that company
> administrators won't see
> > until
> >
> > they have a black eye.
> >
> > My opinion is that this degradation on the job market
> has been
> > perpetuated
> >
> > by recruiters who exclude competent programming skills
> and experience
> > almost
> >
> > to the point of age discrimination.When your told your
> over qualified
> > to
> >
> > use VB. Net in VS 2003 someone has some very crossed
> wires.
> >
> > If you have watched other sectors you will note some
> interesting
> >
> > characteristics.As a carpenter that later invested the
> education to
> > enter
> >
> > the industry as a 1982 IBM Sys36 Cobol and Fortran
> programmer, I now
> > make
> >
> > more money doing the finish trim on a custom home than
> any offer I've
> > seen
> >
> > in two years as a programmer.
> >
> > Don't think that there is recovery anytime soon.All
> indicators point
> > to
> >
> > programming being a $35K to $42K industry on average if
> recruiters are
> >
> > allowed to continue there segregating grip on corporate
> HR.We as US
> >
> > citizens will further endure excessive tax liability
> because
> > corporations
> >
> > make these exploits and the W2 worker pays for more
> gorged budgets.
> >
> > So what is the outcome.Incorporate, maintain strict
> records so when
> > your
> >
> > taxes are filed the government gives you your next
> years operating
> > capital
> >
> > in the form of a refund.If the job market was
> generating a correct
> > index
> >
> > then corporate earnings would out way the many, many
> deductions that
> >
> > overwhelm revenues and lead to a phat corporate tax
> return.
> >
> > I want to raise my earnings for next year, getting work
> is harder than
> >
> > taking a loss for not getting the work.A perpetual
> vacation instilled
> > by
> >
> > the present IT market that can generate a balanced P&L
> after the
> > refund is
> >
> > deposited.On one hand it sux, but after your used to it
> you find it
> > isn't
> >
> > all that bad and you have plenty of time to read while
> those W2
> > workers
> >
> > build the government coffers so I can get a good
> refund.
> >
> > So hey everyone...work a little (4 months), then
> vacation (looking for
> > work)
> >
> > until your refunded all those expenses that took all
> operating capital
> > and
> >
> > extended your vacation.
> >
> > Good luck
> >
> > Bob Coward
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: Unmoderated DOTNET job forum
> >
> > [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of
> David P. Brown
> >
> > Sent:Friday, June 06, 2003 11:37 AM
> >
> > To: [email protected]
> >
> > Subject: Re: [DOTNET-JOBS]
> >
> > Lighten up, please. I for one am enjoying this
> discussion.
> >
> > Nice post, Larry. :)
> >
> > David P. Brown
> >
> > Sr. SQA Engineer
> >
> > Kofax Image Products
> >
> > Irvine, CA
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: Unmoderated DOTNET job forum
> > [mailto:[email protected]]
> >
> > On Behalf Of Christine Larsen
> >
> > Sent:Thursday, June 05, 2003 6:26 PM
> >
> > To: [email protected]
> >
> > Subject: Re: [DOTNET-JOBS]
> >
> > this is not a discussion group but a job posting board
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: Larry O'Brien [mailto:[email protected]]
> >
> > Sent:Thursday, June 05, 2003 4:47 PM
> >
> > To: [email protected]
> >
> > Subject: Re: [DOTNET-JOBS]
> >
> > > once the market picks up again, and it
> >
> > > will, companies like this one will suffer tremendous
> turnover
> >
> > Surely that's true, but it doesn't necessarily mean
> that they will go
> > out of
> >
> > business. To me, the overall market seems to be moving
> towards
> > inexpensive
> >
> > incompetence: under-specified, under-bid, and
> under-delivered
> > projects. But
> >
> > the monthly bill is less! I do not think software
> development
> > professionals
> >
> > have proved to business leaders that an understanding
> of software
> >
> > development processes and practices translates into
> less expense in
> > the long
> >
> > run. Everyone on this list may know that the lessons of
> "The Mythical
> >
> > Man-Month" still hold true, but does the average
> business leader? Or
> > do they
> >
> > think "Yeah, that's just the squawking of people who
> miss their
> > foosball
> >
> > tables and in-office massages"? I think that the gap
> between good
> > software
> >
> > development practices and average software development
> practices is
> > growing
> >
> > and I think that for that to change, there must be a
> movement in the
> >
> > _business_ world, but if you read the business
> magazines or the
> >
> > business-oriented software development magazines, this
> year's silver
> > bullets
> >
> > are outsourcing and cost control.
> >
> > Just my depressed $.02 cents,
> >
> > Larry
> >
> > http://www.ThinkingIn.NET/
> >

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