RE: Re: Ok. Heh, is there still an smtp-based list out here:D

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Haley [mailto:[email protected]] 
> >> If the user isn't ready for the OS then perhaps that's precisely 
> >> because the OS isn't ready for the user.
> > 
> > But we're not starting even. The OS may not be "ready" *for 
> users who 
> > have been trained for some 20 years in the Windows way of 
> doing things 
> > (and I've used Windows since 3.11, but 95 and later users 
> don't even 
> > have my experience with non-GUI applications--WordPerfect 
> was *great* 
> > under DOS), and Linux for the most part has resisted the 
> temptation to 
> > deform its design to compensate for the fact that the userbase has 
> > been crippled for all that time.
> 
> That's a borderline offensive statement. You are saying that 
> Windows users are somehow "crippled" with respect to Linux 
> users. I'll ignore that part of the paragraph and reply to the rest:

I agree that crippled is probably not the word that should have been
used, but it does raise a valid point. I think a good metaphor would be
a stick shift sports car VS and automatic. In that scenario, the driver
who knows how to drive a stick shift can drive both car's and the other
driver can only drive one. 

It sounded better in my head, but you get the idea.

> Why does a user have to be "ready" for Linux? 

I don't know if it is so much as the user being ready for Linux as it is
the user should be fed up with Windows. People are allowing to do
Microsoft to do things that should not be allowed. And they are doing it
in the name of convenience and ignorance. It's like watching a bad
sci-fi movie.

I like to think people as individuals are relatively intelligent, but as
a society they are morons. If they could be sat down as individuals and
explained what Microsoft is doing, maybe then Windows would change and
converting to Linux would not be as big issue.

> suggesting that Windows users should be converted to Linux, 
> but that it's their fault because they're not ready for it 
> because they are used to a certain design paradigm. OK, but 
> if you (general you) are telling somebody to convert, don't 
> you think it's your business to make that process as easy as 
> possible for them?

I agree whole heartedly. However it is not Windows that is making things
easy for them, it is the vendors. Microsoft does not install all those
little helpers that make things "just work".  If someone does not know
their butt from a hole in the ground, they use the wizards and pretty
installers. Why do you think AOL got to be as big as it was? It was
everywhere and easy to install. Microsoft did not make it that way.

Think about it nowadays. If you join up with DSL or Cable (AT&T and Time
Warner here) they have a pretty flash animated installer that does the
internet configuration for the user. Windows doesn't do that, the vendor
does.  Now everyone knows that Linux has rich scripting capabilities, so
why don't vendors jump on that?

It's the same thing with media, windows can't play crap with out
codec's. But 3rd party vendors put them on the computer or they put them
in your "Recovery Disc". It is not Windows that everyone likes, it is
the 3rd party support they enjoy.

> <snip> But how will you convince my 
> girlfriend that she *needs* to convert to Linux, if that 
> process won't be very fast and easy?

If she is having no problems right now under windows, there is no way
nor reason your are going convince her to switch. However, if she has a
favorite app/game that is for XP or earlier and it won't work on
Vista... Why not try converting her. Switching from a comfortable OS to
a whole new one such as Vista would be a perfect time to try out a Linux
or BSD distro. If it turns out she likes it, great. If not, you didn't
lose any money. You can't say the same of Vista. If you don't like it,
you are out money.

> If what I want is email, http, office and chat, I just want 
> that to work. I should *not* have to know *anything* about 
> *any* system administration if that is all I want. The system 
> should come packaged in such a way that I can turn it on, do 
> some incredibly basic setup like entering my name, timezone 
> and so forth, and it should "just work" without me having to 
> ever see a "sudo".

I agree whole heartedly. Again though, this is not Windows doing it but
a vendor. Granny Smith signs up for AT&T  and uses their fancy CD that
autoplays in the CD tray. All it asks is what username you want. It sets
up the (doesn't give you a choice) Outlook Express POP SMTP and I think
even the NNTP, gives you Yahoo! Instant Messenger, Sets up Internet
Explorer and sets your homepage to Yahoo! Search of some crap. 

So yes it should be easy, but it should be the vendors that make it easy
for Linux users.

> 
> Cheers,
> - David

Good discussion David, lets keep it going! The LSML hasn't seen this
kind of action in a while.

> 
> --
> David C. Haley
> http://david.the-haleys.org
> 
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> 
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