Re: [Ebbc-Talk] Ebbc-Talk Digest, Vol 369, Issue 3

Kerry Drew <[email protected]>
Newsgroups gmane.culture.bicycle.ebbc
Message-ID <CAOQ0zNeOHMoVv0c7UrjpFxDUmXnzf+GKS=6VappB=QhFYr+0Cg@mail.gmail.com>
Mantis Cyle (photo attached)

Enjoy!

~ Kerry  @}:^)

From Tokyo, the world's greatest bicycling city!
On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 3:46 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

> Send Ebbc-Talk mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Bicycle Boulevard of Broken Dreams (Jym Dyer)
>   2. Re: [Discuss] Fwd: Community Message: April is    National
>      Distracted Driving Awareness Month (Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604)
>   3. Re: [Discuss] Fwd: Community Message: April is    National
>      Distracted Driving Awareness Month (Bob Shanteau)
>   4. How Downtown L.A. Became a Place to Live (without Parking) |
>      Laws That Shaped LA | Land of Sunshine | KCET (Len Conly)
>   5. Re: [Discuss] Fwd: Community Message: April is    National
>      Distracted Driving Awareness Month (Ed Mechem)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri,  6 Apr 2012 11:20:20 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jym Dyer <jym-RQ31L/[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Ebbc-Talk] Bicycle Boulevard of Broken Dreams
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
>
> =v= As I feared, they hacked the other side of Horton:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jym/6905196680/
>
> =v= So now, between this and last week's malpruning (
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jym/7024439977/
> ), motorists have an unobstructed sightline from the jog near
> Sherwin Williams all the way down to the terrace condos next
> to Amtrak, and can be expected to speed up accordingly.
>
> =v= (The same is technically true of bicyclists, though we
> have to work harder to pull that off, especially given the
> higher headwinds that the canopies used to shield us from.)
>
> > As part of the original BPAC that pushed for that boulevard,
> > I can say that it looks less and less like a boulevard each
> > year.
>
> =v= Thank you for your work and perspective.  I should mention
> that my concern, aside from being a bike commuter, comes from
> being ISA-certified for tree care.  They are seriously damaging
> these trees' long-term health prospects, and what's more, trees
> respond to drastic hacking by quickly growing weakly-attached
> branches that tend to fall off.
>
> > Some of that is out of control of anyone: for example Novartis
> > arguing that car bombs were a threat and removing parking
> > (thus making the street even faster).
>
> =v= Yep, and the trees at that end of the erstwhile boulevard
> have been trimmed into a nearly vertical habit.  Even so, right
> this very minute, New Image Landscaping is malpruning them back
> even further.  That'll keep the mad bombers away, I guess.
>    <_Jym_>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 18:28:30 +0000
> From: Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604 <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Ebbc-Talk] [Discuss] Fwd: Community Message: April is
>        National Distracted Driving Awareness Month
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> That's useful.
>
> I was passed very closely and cursed, for being slow and in the way, by
> an older woman as she passed. Then she did it again at the next three
> lights as I pulled up alongside, waved and smiled. This was west-bound
> on University in Berkeley.
> I would like to have reported her, but knew of no appropriate way to do so.
>
>
> On 06-Apr-12 17:38, BikeDave wrote:
> > Here are a couple of avenues to report unsafe drivers:
> >
> > Potentially Unsafe Driver -
> http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/ffdl10.htm
> >
> > Unsafe Driver Form - http://www.dmv.ca.gov/forms/ds/ds699.pdf
> >
> > And information on the dangers:
> >
> > Driver Distractions-Don't Be a Statistic -
> http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/ffdl28.htm
> >
> > One could spend a lot of time reporting!
> >
> > Be Careful out there,
> >
> > BikeDave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Apr 5, 2012, at 9:02 AM, Alex Plumb wrote:
> >
> >> Zach, This is similar to a recent experience of mine. I was turning left
> >> onto Central from Fernside. I took the lane, stopped, signaled, and
> started
> >> my turn. As I turned, the driver of a large SUV approaching in the
> opposite
> >> direction made a rolling stop and turned right onto Central, all
> without a
> >> signal. I had the right of way, but was easily able to slow my pace to
> allow
> >> him to safely pass in front of me. He was talking on a cell phone the
> whole
> >> time. I caught up to him at the red light at High Street and tapped on
> the
> >> passenger window. While still talking on his phone, he lowered the
> window to
> >> see what I wanted. I let him know that he cut me off in the
> intersection and
> >> probably hadn't noticed I was even there. I told him to put the phone
> away
> >> before he killed someone.
> >> He said to the person on the phone, "hold on, somebody else is trying to
> >> talk to me".
> >> I just said, "hang up the phone!" and rode on as the light changed.
> >>
> >> What else can you do?
> >>
> >> Alex Plumb
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: discuss-bounces-PnctHDZWAvDUULMYpbJcGIaCUm+kVXi4@public.gmane.org
> >> [mailto:discuss-bounces-PnctHDZWAvDUULMYpbJcGIaCUm+kVXi4@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Zach Kaplan
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 10:29 PM
> >> To: Jon Spangler
> >> Cc: [email protected]; BikeAlameda List;
> [email protected]
> >> Subject: Re: [Discuss] [Ebbc-Talk] Fwd: Community Message: April is
> National
> >> Distracted Driving Awareness Month
> >>
> >> What should we do if we see one? Last week I was waiting for a red
> light and
> >> a driver pulled up on my right to make a right turn. His window was
> open and
> >> I could see and hear he was talking on a hand held phone. I yelled out
> "hang
> >> up the phone". This caused him to interrupt his conversation and ask me
> if I
> >> was the law. I told him it is California law, no talking on hand held
> phones
> >> while driving, hang up the phone. He told me it is only against the law
> if
> >> he is caught and drove away.
> >>
> >> Zach
> >>
> >> On 4 Apr 2012, at 16:28, Jon Spangler wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks to the Alameda Police Department for this message: keep your
> >>> eyes out for distracted drivers, cyclists, walkers, texters.....
> >>>
> >>> Jon
> >>>
> >>> Begin forwarded message:
> >>>
> >>>> From: Alameda Police Department<alameda-police-
> >>>> department-hzil4y89cRtL2hSD/[email protected]>
> >>>> Date: April 4, 2012 3:48:27 PM PDT
> >>>> To: [email protected]
> >>>> Subject: Community Message: April is National Distracted Driving
> >>>> Awareness Month
> >>>> Reply-To: no-reply-hzil4y89cRtL2hSD/[email protected]
> >>>>
> >>>> Message sent via Nixle | Go to nixle.com | Unsubscribe
> >>>>
> >>>> Wednesday April 4, 2012, 3:47 PM
> >>>> Alameda Police Department
> >>>>
> >>>> Community: April is National Distracted Driving Awareness Month
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Jon M Spangler,
> >>>>
> >>>> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has
> >>>> designated the month of April as National Distracted Driving
> >>>> Awareness Month.
> >>>>
> >>>> According to the NHTSA, distracted driving is a dangerous practice
> >>>> occurring on America's roadways at an epidemic level. In 2009
> >>>> collisions involving distracted driving resulted in the deaths of
> >>>> 5,500 people and injuring over 440,000.
> >>>>
> >>>> As defined in the Overview of the National Highway Traffic Safety
> >>>> Administration's Distracted Driver Program (DOT HS 811 299), a
> >>>> "distraction" is a specific type of inattention that occurs when
> >>>> drivers divert their attention from driving to focus on some other
> >>>> activity. The more common distractions noted by Alameda Police
> >>>> Officers are: talking on cellular phones, texting, using cell phones
> >>>> as mapping devices, eating, applying make-up, reading books or
> >>>> newspapers, reaching for items within the vehicle, and allowing pets
> >>>> to ride on a driver's lap. Although not all of these listed
> >>>> distractions are considered "illegal", they contribute to a driver's
> >>>> inattention and are the cause of many collisions.
> >>>>
> >>>> During the month of April, officers will be actively looking for
> >>>> these violations. Please take a few extra minutes, set those
> >>>> distractions aside and focus on driving.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you would like additional information and statistics regarding the
> >>>> distracted driver, please visit the U.S. Department of Transportation
> >>>> National Highway Traffic Safety Administration website at
> >>>> www.distraction.gov.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Ron Simmons, Traffic Sergeant
> >>>> Contact Information:
> >>>> Sergeant Ron Simmons
> >>>> Traffic
> >>>> 510-337-8367
> >>>> [email protected]
> >>>>
> >>>> For full details, view this message on the web.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent by Alameda Police Department
> >>>> 1555 Oak St, Alameda, CA 94501
> >>>>
> >>>> To manage your email settings, click here. To update your account
> >>>> settings, login here.
> >>>> If you prefer not to receive future emails, unsubscribe here.
> >>>>
> >>>> Powered by . C 2012 Nixle, LLC. All rights reserved.
> >>>>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ebbc-Talk mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > http://lists.ebbc.org/listinfo.cgi/ebbc-talk-ebbc.org
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 12:00:37 -0700
> From: Bob Shanteau <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Ebbc-Talk] [Discuss] Fwd: Community Message: April is
>        National Distracted Driving Awareness Month
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 4/6/2012 11:28 AM, Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604 wrote:
> > That's useful.
> >
> > I was passed very closely and cursed, for being slow and in the way,
> > by an older woman as she passed. Then she did it again at the next
> > three lights as I pulled up alongside, waved and smiled. This was
> > west-bound on University in Berkeley.
> > I would like to have reported her, but knew of no appropriate way to
> > do so.
>
> The law addresses lanes that are too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle
> to travel safely side by side within the lane:
>
> ---
> <http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21202.htm>
> CVC 21202.  (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed
> less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at
> that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or
> edge of the roadway *except* under any of the following situations:
> ...
> (3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not
> limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians,
> animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it
> unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge, subject to the
> provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a
> "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and
> a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.
> ---
>
> If the lane you're in is too narrow for a vehicle to pass you safely
> within the lane, then it's YOUR lane!!! Don't invite faster motorists to
> squeeze past you. Instead, move left so that they have to change lanes
> to pass!!!!
>
> Bob Shanteau
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 16:07:03 -0700
> From: Len Conly <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Ebbc-Talk] How Downtown L.A. Became a Place to Live (without
>        Parking) | Laws That Shaped LA | Land of Sunshine | KCET
> Message-ID: <D2679832-9E9D-4D70-9DE8-33A8B8ADE251-BKF+SxWSZvA@public.gmane.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=UTF-8;  format=flowed;  delsp=yes
>
>
> "Then, between 1999 and 2008, Downtown gained at least 7,300 housing
> units just from long-term vacant buildings.
>
> What accounts for that tremendous uptick? Many factors, of course; but
> at least in the policy realm, arguably none are nearly as significant
> as the Adaptive Reuse Ordinance, or "ARO."
>
> Passed by the L.A. City Council in -- yes -- 1999 and at first applied
> only to Downtown, ARO gave the go-ahead for the conversion of historic
> and other older -- and often under-used, under-appreciated or even
> abandoned -- office buildings into residences. ARO was expanded in
> 2003 into various other parts of the city."
>
>
>
> http://www.kcet.org/socal/departures/landofsunshine/laws-that-shaped-la/how-downtown-la-became-a-place-to-live-without-parking.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Laws That Shaped LA
> How Downtown L.A. Became a Place to Live (without Parking)
> by Jeremy Rosenberg
> on April 2, 2012 2:19 PM
> Posted every Monday, the Laws That Shaped L.A. spotlights regulations
> that have played a significant role in the development of contemporary
> Los Angeles. These laws -- as nominated and explained each week by a
> locally-based expert -- may be civil or criminal, and they may have
> been put into practice by city, county, state, federal or even
> international authority.
>
> This Week's Law That Shaped L.A.
>
> Law: Adaptive Reuse Ordinance
> Year: 1999
> Jurisdiction: City of Los Angeles
> Nominated by: Don Shoup, Nate Wittasek
>
> During an almost thirty-year period beginning in 1970, Downtown Los
> Angeles gained a grand total of 4,300 units in housing stock.
>
> Then, between 1999 and 2008, Downtown gained at least 7,300 housing
> units just from long-term vacant buildings.
>
> What accounts for that tremendous uptick? Many factors, of course; but
> at least in the policy realm, arguably none are nearly as significant
> as the Adaptive Reuse Ordinance, or "ARO."
>
> Passed by the L.A. City Council in -- yes -- 1999 and at first applied
> only to Downtown, ARO gave the go-ahead for the conversion of historic
> and other older -- and often under-used, under-appreciated or even
> abandoned -- office buildings into residences. ARO was expanded in
> 2003 into various other parts of the city.
>
> "[The Ordinance] provides for an expedited approval process and
> ensures that older and historic building are not subjected to the same
> zoning and code requirements that apply to new construction," reads
> texton the city's Office of Historic Resources site.
>
> "The effect of the Adaptive Reuse Ordinance cannot be understated in
> how important it to the success and support of all of these other
> elements," Nate Wittasek says. Those other elements Wittasek mentions
> include a move away from urban core decay and a move towards a more
> pedestrian-centric environment.
>
> Wittasek is a senior managing engineer at the consulting firm,
> Exponent, and one of the first people to nominate to this column the
> ARO as a "Law That Shaped L.A." Another person who did the same:
> Donald Shoup, the inimitable "parking rock star" UCLA urban planning
> professor.
>
> Shoup, Cal Poly Professor Rick Willson are among the folks who have
> also nominated "minimum parking requirement" as a corollary to
> Adaptive Reuse. [Read the related recent Laws That Shaped L.A. column,
> "The Roots of Sprawl: Why We Don't Live Where We Work."
>
> The housing stock increase statistics at the beginning of this column
> come from an American Planning Association Planning magazine article
> by Shoup that the professor kindly sent this column's way. Titled,
> "Yes, Parking Reform is Possible," the piece is subtitled, "A progress
> report from the author of The High Cost of Free Parking."
>
> Shoup's article brings up case studies from throughout the country --
> particularly New York and California -- that demonstrate what the
> peerless professor has been arguing for years. Which is, essentially,
> that traditional parking policies are nuts -- this column's word not
> his -- and that reform is both preferable as well as possible.
>
> Shoup's article notes that pre-ARO, developers were required per each
> housing unit to provide two or more parking spaces. Those spaces,
> Shoup emphasizes in his piece, were required to be on-site.
>
>
> Pacific Electric Building long before loft conversion, ca. 1910-1919 |
> Courtesy of the USC Digital Library
>
> Post-ARO, Shoup's piece says that the average number of on-site
> parking spaces fell to 0.9 in those converted, previously vacant
> buildings. Including off-site parking, the number was still 1.3 spaces
> per unit. That's a 65% drop in required parking spaces in an area
> where many residents already self-select to reside in for reasons
> unrelated to having a multi-car garage.
>
> Shoup, in his article, puts parking into the larger historic core
> picture:
>
> "The ARO produced other benefits as well. It encouraged the
> preservation of many wonderful buildings that were in terrible
> condition and might have been demolished if minimum parking
> requirements had remained in place. Historic buildings are a scarce
> resource in any city, and the evidence shows that parking requirements
> stood in the way of preserving these buildings."
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 23:46:41 -0700
> From: Ed Mechem <[email protected]>
> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>,
>  BikeAlameda
>        List <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Ebbc-Talk] [Discuss] Fwd: Community Message: April is
>        National        Distracted Driving Awareness Month
> Message-ID: <8C254FB5-32EE-4551-B8D2-61A809DA3FF0-ZPgmqyIm0aEdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
>
> I'm a big fan of AirZounds - the compressed air horn - gets those drivers'
> attention who aren't seeing me and aren't hearing the little ding ding bell.
>
> Sent from my Polaroid SX-70
>
> On Apr 5, 2012, at 9:02 AM, "Alex Plumb" <alexp-bv7X0EEyzJQ3TlIqSlSTNAC/[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Zach, This is similar to a recent experience of mine. I was turning left
> > onto Central from Fernside. I took the lane, stopped, signaled, and
> started
> > my turn. As I turned, the driver of a large SUV approaching in the
> opposite
> > direction made a rolling stop and turned right onto Central, all without
> a
> > signal. I had the right of way, but was easily able to slow my pace to
> allow
> > him to safely pass in front of me. He was talking on a cell phone the
> whole
> > time. I caught up to him at the red light at High Street and tapped on
> the
> > passenger window. While still talking on his phone, he lowered the
> window to
> > see what I wanted. I let him know that he cut me off in the intersection
> and
> > probably hadn't noticed I was even there. I told him to put the phone
> away
> > before he killed someone.
> > He said to the person on the phone, "hold on, somebody else is trying to
> > talk to me".
> > I just said, "hang up the phone!" and rode on as the light changed.
> >
> > What else can you do?
> >
> > Alex Plumb
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: discuss-bounces-PnctHDZWAvDUULMYpbJcGIaCUm+kVXi4@public.gmane.org
> > [mailto:discuss-bounces-PnctHDZWAvDUULMYpbJcGIaCUm+kVXi4@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Zach Kaplan
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 10:29 PM
> > To: Jon Spangler
> > Cc: [email protected]; BikeAlameda List;
> [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] [Ebbc-Talk] Fwd: Community Message: April is
> National
> > Distracted Driving Awareness Month
> >
> > What should we do if we see one? Last week I was waiting for a red light
> and
> > a driver pulled up on my right to make a right turn. His window was open
> and
> > I could see and hear he was talking on a hand held phone. I yelled out
> "hang
> > up the phone". This caused him to interrupt his conversation and ask me
> if I
> > was the law. I told him it is California law, no talking on hand held
> phones
> > while driving, hang up the phone. He told me it is only against the law
> if
> > he is caught and drove away.
> >
> > Zach
> >
> > On 4 Apr 2012, at 16:28, Jon Spangler wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks to the Alameda Police Department for this message: keep your
> >> eyes out for distracted drivers, cyclists, walkers, texters.....
> >>
> >> Jon
> >>
> >> Begin forwarded message:
> >>
> >>> From: Alameda Police Department <alameda-police-
> >>> department-hzil4y89cRtL2hSD/[email protected]>
> >>> Date: April 4, 2012 3:48:27 PM PDT
> >>> To: [email protected]
> >>> Subject: Community Message: April is National Distracted Driving
> >>> Awareness Month
> >>> Reply-To: no-reply-hzil4y89cRtL2hSD/[email protected]
> >>>
> >>> Message sent via Nixle | Go to nixle.com | Unsubscribe
> >>>
> >>> Wednesday April 4, 2012, 3:47 PM
> >>> Alameda Police Department
> >>>
> >>> Community: April is National Distracted Driving Awareness Month
> >>>
> >>> Hi Jon M Spangler,
> >>>
> >>> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has
> >>> designated the month of April as National Distracted Driving
> >>> Awareness Month.
> >>>
> >>> According to the NHTSA, distracted driving is a dangerous practice
> >>> occurring on America's roadways at an epidemic level. In 2009
> >>> collisions involving distracted driving resulted in the deaths of
> >>> 5,500 people and injuring over 440,000.
> >>>
> >>> As defined in the Overview of the National Highway Traffic Safety
> >>> Administration's Distracted Driver Program (DOT HS 811 299), a
> >>> "distraction" is a specific type of inattention that occurs when
> >>> drivers divert their attention from driving to focus on some other
> >>> activity. The more common distractions noted by Alameda Police
> >>> Officers are: talking on cellular phones, texting, using cell phones
> >>> as mapping devices, eating, applying make-up, reading books or
> >>> newspapers, reaching for items within the vehicle, and allowing pets
> >>> to ride on a driver's lap. Although not all of these listed
> >>> distractions are considered "illegal", they contribute to a driver's
> >>> inattention and are the cause of many collisions.
> >>>
> >>> During the month of April, officers will be actively looking for
> >>> these violations. Please take a few extra minutes, set those
> >>> distractions aside and focus on driving.
> >>>
> >>> If you would like additional information and statistics regarding the
> >>> distracted driver, please visit the U.S. Department of Transportation
> >>> National Highway Traffic Safety Administration website at
> >>> www.distraction.gov.
> >>>
> >>> - Ron Simmons, Traffic Sergeant
> >>> Contact Information:
> >>> Sergeant Ron Simmons
> >>> Traffic
> >>> 510-337-8367
> >>> [email protected]
> >>>
> >>> For full details, view this message on the web.
> >>>
> >>> Sent by Alameda Police Department
> >>> 1555 Oak St, Alameda, CA 94501
> >>>
> >>> To manage your email settings, click here. To update your account
> >>> settings, login here.
> >>> If you prefer not to receive future emails, unsubscribe here.
> >>>
> >>> Powered by . C 2012 Nixle, LLC. All rights reserved.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Jon Spangler
> >> Writer/editor
> >> Linda Hudson Writing
> >> TEL  510-864-2144
> >> CEL 510-846-5356
> >> [email protected]
> >> www.linkedin.com/in/jonmspangler
> >> www.twitter.com/jonmspangler
> >>
> >>
> >> "She who succeeds in gaining the mastery of the bicycle will gain the
> >> mastery of life."
> >> -Frances E. Willard, in A Wheel Within a Wheel: How I Learned to
> >> Ride the Bicycle (1895)
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ebbc-Talk mailing list
> >> [email protected]
> >> http://lists.ebbc.org/listinfo.cgi/ebbc-talk-ebbc.org
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BikeAlameda Discussion mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > To change your email or update your settings:
> > http://lists.bikealameda.org/listinfo.cgi/discuss-bikealameda.org
> > To unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.bikealameda.org/options.cgi/discuss-bikealameda.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ebbc-Talk mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > http://lists.ebbc.org/listinfo.cgi/ebbc-talk-ebbc.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ebbc-Talk mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://lists.ebbc.org/listinfo.cgi/ebbc-talk-ebbc.org
>
>
> End of Ebbc-Talk Digest, Vol 369, Issue 3
> *****************************************
>



-- 
 "You cannot reason a person out of something they were not reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift

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