Re: Re: Introductions

> At one point, I was doing a lot of shoplifting. Had I been labelled a
> "thief" at that time in my life, it would have been an accurate label, but
> it may also have been very damaging to my growth, because I was looking
> for identity at that moment, and I'm glad I didn't decide that "thief" was
> my true nature. At one critical instant, after almost being caught, I made
> the decision that I would live my life without telling any lie that would
> embarass me to be caught uttering. And no stealing, either, since that is
> just another kind of lying. I was ten years old, and I've lived up to that
> standard pretty closely ever since. That was an integration event in my
> growth as a person.

That's a cool story. And I think you're right -- there's always opportunity
to change, and anything that discourages that is bad.

What was it at the point of change in your beliefs that switched? Why was
almost getting caught a trigger?

> > Interesting - would it be correct to say then that you believe that all
of
> > your impulses are correct? That you don't have unhealthy impulses? That
> > doesn't sound like what you wrote, so I guess I'm just confused.
>
> No, because I have also learned more about the nature of my impulses, and
> figured out which ones are more important to indulge and which are more
> important to control. For instance, the urge to punch someone I'm
> frustrated with is one that I must control. The urge to confess what I
> feel to someone I trust is an urge more important to indulge, in most
> cases.

What is your baseline for judging your impulses? How do you decide right and
wrong?

>
> As we become adults, we have to align our impulses with our self-image and
> self-control mechanisms, or else we live in constant stress and
> self-loathing. This is a complicated and interesting issue, of course.

Can you talk more about 'aligning our impulses'? Can I control/change my
impulses? Where do you see impulses falling in relation to emotion?

> I'm
> just pointing out that it may have been a very *good* thing that your
> friend let his feelings lead his actions in that case. Or maybe it really
> was a bad thing-- but not just because of his stated beliefs.

I think we agree here, just some different emphasis. I would say that good
can come from this. I think that his feelings revealed some truths about his
heart that may not have been previously seen, and truth/light/clarity is
always a good thing. What was revealed may not itself be good. Probably,
there are a few layers there.

I don't think his actions were good. That it revealed some loneliness in his
life is good. Hopefully he can take this opportunity to look at it some more
and work out these surface conflicts.

> > It also flips my way of viewing things on its head. I believe that my
> > impulses are a result of my beliefs - so your statement comes off weird
in
> > my framework. Hmmm
> >
>
> Well, think about that. If a belief is a conscious idea, then you're
> saying that all impulses come from conscious ideas. ..

... no ...

> On the other hand, if a belief can be an unconsciously held idea, then
> it's possible that someone can profess a belief that is contradicted by
> another, stronger belief that he is not consciously aware of, which leads
> to apparently (but not truly) hypocritical behavior.

... yes, I think it's this way.

> It's better to be a hypocrite than not when your beliefs are wrong. And
> much apparent hypocrisy, I think, is simply a transient side effect of a
> learning process.
>
> I think true hypocrisy is when someone professes a certain beliefs,
> knowing they are not his real beliefs, in order to gain social status or
> some other reward. Your friend might be a real hypocrite, or maybe just
> confused.

Ah. I'm defining hypocrisy as any conflict of belief, conscious or
unconscious, intentional or not. Dictionary.com says, "The practice of
professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess;"
... which really doesn't distinguish to the level of detail we're
discussing.

Bigger picture, to me it is important to see that unconscious beliefs exist
and can contradict other beliefs I hold to.

> > It might pass. Or he just might move on, not resolving his conflicting
> > beliefs, not acknowledging that he even has conflicting beliefs and just
set
> > himself up for another failure of the same kind in his next
relationship.
>
> Yes, we don't know. We would have to observe him over time, and see if
> he's learning or if he's stuck. Again, I'm not convinced this was a
> failure at all. Perhaps it was not meant to be.

Splitting hairs again -- I think his action was wrong based on his stated
motives and beliefs. Could the same action have been the right thing to do
given a different heart? Possibly.

Right or wrong action, I do agree that his response to this over time is a
more important thing to watch.

> I have to wonder at why
> his prospective girlfriend would be "weirded out" by someone expressing
> his feelings, unless she wasn't meant for him, anyway.

Weird happens :) A year before my wife and I started dating we hung out
together and both of us thought the other, well, the 'wrong' type :)

It could very well be that she simply doesn't like him and this isn't in
God's plan and no big deal. It could be she does like him, but what he said,
how he said it, didn't meet her expectations and caused her to not trust
him. There's a good chance he prefaced the whole deal with, "I know we can't
date and I know I shouldn't say this, but..." "Well, if you know you
shouldn't do it, why are you doing it?" ... and trust could have gotten off
to a rocky start. If she can't trust him to control his tongue in a simple
conversation, what's it going to be like in a more important issue?

> > I disagree. He disobeyed God and his employer, two entities he had prior
> > commitments to. He should blame himself, take responsibility for his
> > actions, dust himself off and get back in the game.
>
> I haven't seen you present any evidence that he disobeyed God. Moreover,
> since I believe God speaks directly to each of us in our hearts, I can
> report that God is reminding me, right this instant, that I don't know
> what God was instructing him to do and it's not my business to judge that,
> anyway.

Circumstances were such that he shared with me his beliefs and what he
believed God was instructing him to do, and he didn't do it. There may be
cases where it's not my business to judge, but there are also cases where it
is. I've got a scratch page on my blogki about judging, right now just with
some verses
[http://www.cministries.org/blogki/blogki.cgi?page=/ChristianFaith/JudgingOt
hers].

There is a place for moral judgment, but it's clear that mercy and grace
should have the emphasis.

> So even if you had evidence that he disobeyed God, that evidence
> would seem to irrelevant based on God's message to me.

I was following you until this sentence. Can you explain this more? Are you
saying that all judging is relative?

> I hope you see that, whether or not God is really speaking to me, invoking
> Him as an authority maybe not be a winning strategy in a debate, since
> each of us has our own sense of God's will and purpose in the world. So
> whenever you say "God" I'm going to translate that into "my own deepest
> feelings about what is right."

I believe the Bible is the proper source for dealing with judgments,
especially, of course, amongst Christians. It doesn't handle everything of
course, so in 'grey' issues there certainly has to be room made for each
person's relationship with God in relation to the matter at hand.

I should aim to have a winning strategy for sure. Paul writes, "Be careful
to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as
it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." (Rom 12:17-18) But the
issue at hand can sway this and I think we need to push towards a Biblical,
Godly consensus and not stray too far into every man's beliefs for himself.

> As for disobeying an employer, there are definitely things that would make
> me disobey an employer. If an employer makes an unreasonable request, I
> will consider disobeying it. That's can be a good kind of resistance.

Yes, definitely.

> So, the fact that he did this unwise action should be a tip-off that there
> is something other than stated beliefs and logical reasoning going on,
> here. It's a tip-off that the world of humans is a complicated landscape.

I agree totally.

> Reducing it to estimates of what is wise and unwise may not help much.

I keep getting the impression that you think I've jumped to judgment too
quickly, or maybe that I shouldn't have jumped there at all. Is that a
correct impression?

> Whenever I see insane behavior, I have to remind myself that insanity is
> just a form a sanity that I don't yet understand.

Agree again. I can only call someone else insane because I believe that the
foundation my beliefs are based on are Correct in Reality, and the other
person's is not. I believe in God, I think the atheist may be exceptionally
consistent in his beliefs but on a wrong foundation. The atheist would view
me the same way. "*If* there was a God, then you're going about it alright,
but ... there's no God, so you're a nut." -- and vice-versa.

> > Or another way - my emotions (impulses) tell me what I believe, but do
> > nothing to judge the correctness of that belief as being morally right
or
> > wrong.
>
> I understand that you believe that, but not everyone does, nor is it the
> sort of thing that follows as a logical necessity from other things that
> we might agree are true.

Do you agree with me? What do you believe in this regard?

> BTW, the courtly love revolution in literature, during the late middle
> ages, can be seen a a rejection of external moral codes and a strong
> affirmation that the heart knows what is right. This is an old argument
> we're having.

I have no doubt about that :)

I wish I could see more of the two co-operating. There seems to have been a
recent counseling movement in the Church because, in my opinion, too many
went too long trying to live their life according to code without taking
their heart along for the ride and it just left most stuck (at least I was
for a long time). I *should* do X, but I keep doing Y, so I'll just try
harder to think about X so much that next time maybe I'll automatically do
X.

Chris
tech: http://clabs.org/blog
arts/faith: http://cministries.org/blog


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