Re: Re: Introductions

On Mon, 12 May 2003, Chris Morris wrote:

> What was it at the point of change in your beliefs that switched? Why was
> almost getting caught a trigger?

Because the fear was so intense. It's like how a near death experience  
helps one appreciate life.

> What is your baseline for judging your impulses? How do you decide right and
> wrong?

Partly by looking at outcomes. Partly by consulting colleagues I respect. 
And partly by asking God within. 

> > As we become adults, we have to align our impulses with our self-image and
> > self-control mechanisms, or else we live in constant stress and
> > self-loathing. This is a complicated and interesting issue, of course.
> 
> Can you talk more about 'aligning our impulses'? Can I control/change my
> impulses? Where do you see impulses falling in relation to emotion?

Sure you can control them. Many of them, anyway. An impulse that is out of
control is one that operates as a reflex. What you can do is reprogram
your reflexes, through practice, or insert a universal reflex, such as
taking a breath, that gives you a moment to reflect.

One example is how I've learned to wait one day before sending a strongly 
emotionally charged email. Alternatively, I send such email to my friend 
Cem Kaner, first. He usually suggested a graceful alternative, and by the 
time I read it, I've cooled down anyway.

The Change Shop (one of Jerry's) focuses a lot on that kind of 
reprogramming.

> I think we agree here, just some different emphasis. I would say that good
> can come from this. I think that his feelings revealed some truths about his
> heart that may not have been previously seen, and truth/light/clarity is
> always a good thing. What was revealed may not itself be good. Probably,
> there are a few layers there.

That sounds cool.

> 
> I don't think his actions were good. That it revealed some loneliness in his
> life is good. Hopefully he can take this opportunity to look at it some more
> and work out these surface conflicts.
> 

You are in a far better position to judge than I. I just like to practice 
seeing multiple possiblities in any situation.

> > Well, think about that. If a belief is a conscious idea, then you're
> > saying that all impulses come from conscious ideas. ..
> 
> ... no ...
> 
> > On the other hand, if a belief can be an unconsciously held idea, then
> > it's possible that someone can profess a belief that is contradicted by
> > another, stronger belief that he is not consciously aware of, which leads
> > to apparently (but not truly) hypocritical behavior.
> 
> ... yes, I think it's this way.

Good, we're in sync on that.

> Ah. I'm defining hypocrisy as any conflict of belief, conscious or
> unconscious, intentional or not. Dictionary.com says, "The practice of
> professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess;"
> ... which really doesn't distinguish to the level of detail we're
> discussing.

I can accept your definition for the purposes of this conversation, but be 
careful. Your definition means someone can be a good person, in full bloom 
of living an examined life, and yet be a hypocrite. Just having 
conflicting beliefs doesn't make someone a bad person, but most people 
would say that it *is* bad to be a hypocrite.

> 
> Bigger picture, to me it is important to see that unconscious beliefs exist
> and can contradict other beliefs I hold to.
> 

Cool. 

> Splitting hairs again -- I think his action was wrong based on his stated
> motives and beliefs. Could the same action have been the right thing to do
> given a different heart? Possibly.

But since you grant that a true belief can be unconsciously held, you 
could just as easily say that his stated beliefs are not the best basis to 
assign rightness or wrongness to his behavior.

> Weird happens :) A year before my wife and I started dating we hung out
> together and both of us thought the other, well, the 'wrong' type :)

And that happened between my wife and I, too. The difference is that I 
think that process was "right", not "wrong".

> If she can't trust him to control his tongue in a simple
> conversation, what's it going to be like in a more important issue?
> 

Or you could look at it this way: if he can't trust her to see the heart 
and meaning of his words instead of legalistically analyzing them, what's 
she going to do in a more important situation?

> Circumstances were such that he shared with me his beliefs and what he
> believed God was instructing him to do, and he didn't do it. There may be
> cases where it's not my business to judge, but there are also cases where it
> is. I've got a scratch page on my blogki about judging, right now just with
> some verses
> [http://www.cministries.org/blogki/blogki.cgi?page=/ChristianFaith/JudgingOt
> hers].

So, you're saying that it was wrong of him to go against his own sense of
right. I agree, except for the fact that you are treating his *stated*
sense of right as if it was his *true* sense of it. Since a belief may be
unconsciously held, you have to be carefuly treating consciously
constructed statements as truths.

> 
> There is a place for moral judgment, but it's clear that mercy and grace
> should have the emphasis.

I agree. I make moral judgments all the time. I just don't claim that 
those judgments are anything other than my own feelings and decisions.

> 
> > So even if you had evidence that he disobeyed God, that evidence
> > would seem to irrelevant based on God's message to me.
> 
> I was following you until this sentence. Can you explain this more? Are you
> saying that all judging is relative?
> 

If God is the authority, and the only way to know God is through a direct 
personal experience, and people seem to have difference experiences, then 
it seems to follow that judging is relative. I realize that a lot of 
people think the bible is a source of information about what God thinks, 
but I don't. I don't think God ever wrote a book. Neither did Socrates.

> I believe the Bible is the proper source for dealing with judgments,
> especially, of course, amongst Christians. It doesn't handle everything of
> course, so in 'grey' issues there certainly has to be room made for each
> person's relationship with God in relation to the matter at hand.

Yeah, but that just begs the question, doesn't it? Citing the Bible only 
helps you in a debate with people who think God speaks through the Bible. 
Since I don't, it won't help you here.

Certainly, in reference to your friend, if he accepts that the Bible is a 
valid reference, and he interprets it as you do, then you have something 
to go on.

> 
> I should aim to have a winning strategy for sure. Paul writes, "Be careful
> to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as
> it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." (Rom 12:17-18) But the
> issue at hand can sway this and I think we need to push towards a Biblical,
> Godly consensus and not stray too far into every man's beliefs for himself.
> 

Your "we", of course, does not include me, so if you go that way, you will 
find yourself unable to overcome my resistance.

> I keep getting the impression that you think I've jumped to judgment too
> quickly, or maybe that I shouldn't have jumped there at all. Is that a
> correct impression?

Yes. My impression is based on the scanty evidence of your message, 
though. Maybe I'm overinterpreting something.

> > > Or another way - my emotions (impulses) tell me what I believe, but do
> > > nothing to judge the correctness of that belief as being morally right
> or
> > > wrong.
> >
> > I understand that you believe that, but not everyone does, nor is it the
> > sort of thing that follows as a logical necessity from other things that
> > we might agree are true.
> 
> Do you agree with me? What do you believe in this regard?

I think impulses can be a message from within about what is morally right. 
So I guess I don't agree with you if you are making a categorical 
statement that no impulse can convey moral information.

-- James


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