Re: answer to Bill's original questions...had to find his original post

>
>
>
> Which are very limited--the Nook's feature only works once per book,
> and only for two weeks, and the Kindle's "sharing" feature involves
> giving the other people full access to your Amazon account. If
> publishers want to cut down on piracy, they need to facilitate easy
> transfer of ebook ownership--a way to say, "remove this ebook from my
> account and put it in my friend's account."
>
> Well, that's wrong, according to the articles I've read on Nook. Yes, it's
limited to two weeks at a time and you lose use of it while it's being read
by someone else, because it's mimicking...gasp...a paper book. Wow. Who
would have thought of that? Yes, I'm being sarcastic. But the deal I've seen
is that it can be lent 6 times. Kindle goes one further and allows (some
reports say as few as 6 and some as many as 10) unrelated Kindle and iPhone
units to be linked together to share books.

And, I completely disagree that it's that simple to cut down piracy, but
that's based on how many of the type I'm forced to deal with on a regular
basis.


>
> > which work under the same principle, as long as the book was purchased
> > initially. I really don't have a problem with Mary letting Jo read a
> > particularly good e-book she purchased either.
>
> How about a physical book? A general industry rule-of-thumb is that a
> book is read by, on average, 6-10 people. But I haven't heard any
> authors mention being comfortable with their ebooks being read by 6
> people per purchase. (Except, indirectly, some of Baen's authors, who
> seem to have grasped that the point is to *get new customers,* not
> waste time & energy tracking down non-customers.)
>
> How about a physical book? There can only be ONE copy of it (unless it's
pirated), which means only one person can use it at a time, and only a
complete idiot would claim that photocopying a full book and handing out
copies is legal, unless the book is public domain. But that's what people do
with e-books.

A lot of people passing books along hand to hand don't even know what files
are ON their computers. They don't realize that, when e-mailing a book, you
have the one on the hard drive, the one in the sent file, the one in the
temp files, the one your ISP keeps stored for a short period of time, the
same set on the other side...and that's before you start counting things
like backups of the hard drive, copies on CD saves or zip saves, copies on
other equipment. If they don't even know they are there, tell me how they
are deleting them correctly? They probably aren't.

Not to mention the people who don't know better. Friend A passes them a book
and does it right, but Friend B doesn't know how to delete it correctly and
starts the ball rolling. Everyone from B through ZZZZZ thinks it MUST be all
right to just pass books along, because X gave it to me, and X is a nice
person and would never do anything wrong. Can you tell I've HAD this
discussion before? As I said, a lot of people don't know what they are doing
wrong, and that sort responds well to education.

If you haven't heard people saying they are comfortable with 6 people
reading a book on single purchase, you aren't listening. I support the
e-book library systems. I don't have a problem with a friend or two sharing.
That is peanuts. That is not the person hurting me. I'd never claim it is
and have written articles about why that person isn't hurting me overmuch.

To boot, many indie authors give free reads. We understand full well the
concept of getting readers in with a free read. In fact, you are talking to
one of the authors that took part in Fictionwise's first ever week-long Baen
experiment.

On that note, please stop misrepresenting what Baen does. I've read Flint's
articles and the reports on sales. The Baen program works BECAUSE their aim
is to offer the first book or two free in a series to spur the sales of all
the books in print or the other books in e.

Back to reads. In the Fictionwise week-long, the average book gave away 1577
copies. Mine gave away 3008. In a week. The sales of the other books more
than doubled, and web site traffic went through the roof. Since then, I've
done two similar weekend promotions with ARe.

But those numbers are largely meaningless. Why? Because if someone is able
to pirate the whole series and is actively pirating, they won't buy
anything. They will just continue taking, because that's what they do.
There's no excuse for it. It's not like they can claim I give no free
samples to make a decision based on. It's entitlement, pure and simple. I've
heard every conceivable excuse out there...or maybe not. Maybe some pirate
will shock me someday with something new, but that's doubtful.


>
>
>
> However, those are meaningless numbers. The number of ebooks floating
> around in the ether & situated on hard drives has *nothing at all* to
> do with potential sales. [snip a bunch more]
>

You do love double talk and trying to argue something I've already stated
myself, don't you? Look, save the lecture for someone that doesn't know how
it works. I already said that what they represent are sales that will never
be not a correlation of X pirated books to Y sales.

As for losing your e-books... Any e-book reader worth his/her salt knows how
to backup, break DRM to do it if you have to (which I personally support,
BTW), and purchase books that can be used on more than one machine. The last
time I heard of someone losing all their e-books (without the person doing
something monumentally stupid) was almost 8 years ago.





>   And studies have also shown that the ones who pirate most are the ones
> who purchase most. Pirates *care* about digital content in ways the
> general public doesn't. (A "heretic" is someone who agrees with you
> 95%. Pirates are *on your side* on the issues of getting the word out,
> on getting content digitized, on finding new ways to reach readers, on
> getting people informed about the technology and how to use it. They
> mainly differ on details of price & availability.)
>
>
Care about how to use the tech to pirate, more likely.

Look, you are attributing a lot to the pirates that does NOT match up with
what I see in sales trends and on pirate sites. You have this rosy view of
pirates as somehow altruistic. They aren't, overall. There may be a few that
are...and a lot that buy the bunk about how piracy helps authors by
introducing new readers, but the fact is, unless they are sharing a book
with a single friend...or a few friends, that's not happening. There is no
good for me in pirates that load a book to be downloaded thousands of times
or resell my copyrighted works. You can make all the excuses you want to,
but that's what it boils down to.

If you want to help an author, pass along links to his/her free reads (or
even the free read itself) WITH information that you have permission to pass
the free read. Use word of mouth...review it on your blog, rate it on Amazon
or Fictionwise...tell people you liked it. It's not that difficult to see
the difference between incidental sharing in a CONTROLLED manner vs.
wholesale piracy, between passing free reads vs. piracy, or in word of mouth
(which causes no depriving of income) vs. piracy.


>
>
>
> The recent Amazon/Macmillan kerfuffle is about the difference between
> $10 ebooks and $15 ebooks; $5 ebooks aren't on the table. Convince
> mainstream publishers that ebooks should compete with/supplement the
> paperback niche rather than hardcovers, and the whole shape of the
> discussion will change.
>
>
BULL! Sorry, but there are two problems with this line of thought. One is
that any indie author will tell you that both Amazon and NY conglomerates
are bassackwards on the whole subject of e-books. The other is that $5
e-books are not only on the table, they have existed in indie for over a
decade. But, people are so hungry for reasons to pirate, I find myself
fighting this sort of sweeping statement all over the web.

Beyond the need to tell NY they are screwed up, why bother with what NY
says? It may take them another decade to get off their backsides and do it
right...or more. Or they may never do it right, despite Carina's foray into
the indie model, complete with no DRM, an author percentage at the low end
of indie norm, and a well-known ex-indie Senior Editor to get it right.


>
>
> I'm not seeing the loss to anyone when a
> book that's widely available for $2 in secondhand shops, but can't be
> bought new, is bouncing around online.) There's also a huge set of
> comics & graphic novels available as scans, the majority of which,
> again, have no legit version.
>
> There is ONE problem with it, but I would largely agree (and already said
it) that OOP works, especially orphaned ones, are probably the best thing to
pirate, if someone is going to pirate. Of course, if I could get it for $2
at a USB, I wouldn't be so quick to pirate it, because it is available, but
either way, the author gets no money from the sale. Back to the subject...
The single problem is that the author may well be in the process of
rereleasing said book, and readers wouldn't know that. In fact, if the
author is unfamiliar with S/S/V, the rampant piracy of the title may prevent
the author from getting a contract for the rerelease.


>
> Which says this has become socially acceptable, and no simple change
> in warning policies or even legal threats is going to stop it.
> Publishers and authors are going to have to deal with an active used
> ebook exchange, and accept its effects on their market. Baen is one of
> the few (only?) publishers to actively cultivate free ebook exchanges,
> and say, "more readers is GOOD; how they got our books is not
> important to us--if they liked the books, they'll buy books. They'll
> tell their friends to buy books."
>

That's wrong, but you're fond of this misstatement. Baen is not nearly the
only people giving free content to spur the sales of other books.

Beyond that, we accept that a certain amount of piracy will go on, and it
will never be stopped. I'm not tilting at windmills over here. That doesn't
mean we don't send take-down notices and VeRO complaints. We'd be idiots not
to. When we see it, we address it. We educate those who are willing to be
educated. We lobby. We appeal. We take pollings and surveys and start
petitions. STOPPING piracy is not on the table. Slowing it is.


>
>
> $3 ebooks that can be downloaded to any device on a whim have good
> chance of not only selling, but selling to people who *already own it*
> on their other computer or their laptop, because people will pay $3
> for convenience.
>

And yet, I continuously see pirates heisting books that cost as little as 49
cents. Shaking head. You attribute qualities to pirates as if they are
universal or nearly so. I admit there may be a few out there that use common
sense and a modicum of ethics. Why you cannot admit that there are many more
that don't is beyond me. Perhaps you use common sense and a modicum of
ethics. If you do, I thank you for it, but that doesn't mean the rampant
others do not exist.


>
>
>
> THAT is a different issue, and should be slammed *hard*. The free
> ebook exchange dynamic is *not* the same as unlicensed resellers, who
> should be nailed with everything copyright law has to offer. That's
> the reason copyright law was created: to prevent unscrupulous
> publishers from grabbing already-successful books and reprinting them,
> cutting the author out of the profits.
>

It is also out there to make sure that there is not unlicensed reproduction
(even if there aren't sales) of the entire work, because that deprives an
author of income, but I notice you don't want to protect that. There are
limits of how much can be reproduced without permission for a reason.

An author can CHOOSE to allow reproduction and even distribution via a
creative commons or open source or shareware situations (I do it personally,
with my free reads) and still retain some rights, like not reselling. What
annoys me, even beyond someone selling my books that are for sale elsewhere
is someone selling the free reads I offer with a creative commons
not-for-commercial-use tag. Why? If I offer something for free, there is
nothing altruistic in cheating other readers by making them pay for
something I gifted them. That is the author mama me getting hacked off.
Don't cheat my readers, or you face me at my worst.


>
>
> So do I, but the public is cut out of discussions of copyright law.
> When copyright was extended, there was no representative for the
> public domain. There's no representative for the public at the current
> ACTA meetings, planning on basically turning the US's DMCA into
> international law, complete with "three accusations of infringement,
> and lose your internet service," with no need for proof. I don't have
> the resources that Disney and the RIAA's lawyers can bring to bear.
>
>
And I already said I do not agree with Millennium. But, yes...you CAN have a
say. Lobby. Make petitions to lawmakers, stating your case. It's a defeatist
attitude to just say, "I can't sit in on the meetings." Guess what, the
lawmakers you elected can and do have a say in things, and they can't even
attempt (not that I think all listen, by far) to change laws in the
direction we need without input. There were FCC hearings, and lobbyists were
there...and they went to some of the author advocates to get information on
common sense law-making. For instance, Rowena Cherry was represented by a
lobbyist at the FCC hearings. Believe me, if what the readers were asking
for made SENSE...like exclusions for access to personally-purchased e-books,
authors are on the same page...well, maybe not Author Guild authors, but
many other authors, like myself.


>
>
> Amazon & big publishers are working very hard to convince the public
> that ebooks should be priced comparatively with trade paperbacks or
> hardcover books; this clashes with the public awareness that used
> paperbacks are under $5. Convincing them that ebooks should cost more
> than used paperbacks is a hard sell.
>

Mass market paperbacks are not under $5, unless they are category length. I
bought two of them today. I know what I pay for a mass market novel. And I
know my e-books of a similar length and genre cost less than they do by at
least $1-3, across the boards.

And as I said, ignore Amazon. The best thing anyone involved can do is point
to blogs and sites for indie press that prove the pricing system works.
Or...fill out the pollings. If I could get 2000 respondents, I might get
some attention for it. Right now, I've got almost 500, I believe.


>
> Baen's $15 pre-sales for rough drafts are a marketing gimmick to a
> niche audience. (Note Baen also not worrying about those versions
> hitting the torrents--which I'm sure they do--and preventing sales
> later.)
>
>
They are not rough drafts. They are ARCs...BIG difference. Grinning...


>
>
>
> I'm in this category. I buy new ebooks. I spend more on ebooks than
> pbooks, which I only buy nonfiction. (Gaming reference books, which
> don't work well in digital format, & religious books that aren't
> available as ebooks.)
>

Good. Go answer the polling on my blog. The more respondents, the better.


>
>
> They're changing that rule; they'll allow self-publishing without DRM
> in the future.
>
>
Interesting. I can't wait to see how they plan on doing that at Amazon.
Other sites do it, but Kindle has it built in, so far.


>
>
>
> When I buy used books at yard sales, or borrow one from a friend, or
> pick up one from the box kept by our apartment mailboxes for people to
> drop off stuff they no longer want, I "deprive authors of royalties."
> Books have never had a "one purchase=one reader" dynamic, and
> publishers and authors who thought ebooks would allow them to
> capitalize on that were fooling themselves.
>
>
Again, that's a cop-out and not comparable. Why? Because a paper book can
only have one reader at a time, and it eventually falls apart. Don't tell me
about 100-year-old hard bound books. I've got some approaching that, but the
newer books have planned obsolescence and few stand to repeated readings
past about 5 or 6 years...the keeper shelf ones that are read a few times a
year, I mean. e-Books do not fall apart. With conversions and backward
compatibility and the ease of copying, you suddenly have multiple copies
that last just about forever. Libraries for all books and USB for paper
books are not depriving authors of income. It's part of the industry that is
akin to rentals of videos and such. Piracy falls between slippage and
wholesale industrial espionage, depending on the scope.


>
> .
> >> How many get a copy and also buy one in print or EBook form?
> > None or so close to none as to be negligible.
>
> 1) Plenty of Baen's customers buy print as well as ebook.
> 2) Plenty of *friends* of ebook pirates, buy print versions based on
> their friends' recommendations.
> 3) I've bought ebooks I already had because I forgot where they were
> on my hard drive--and they were cheap enough that I didn't care.
>
>
First of all, Baen has nothing to do with this. We are discussing pirated
copies that are later purchased, so let's write that one off, from the
get-go. People who get a free read from Baen are not pirating it. Baen
allows pass alongs of free reads, though I did get permission and was told
by them which ones I could include on EPIC's CDs.

I highly doubt the second one, since pirates are busy just giving them
copies of the pirated book. Again, why would they bother to buy it, when
someone is giving it to them for free? The pirates that give a fig about the
authors are in the minority, in my experience. It's all about their wants,
their entitlement, their... You get the idea. Remember, I don't consider
people that share a single copy with a buddy pirates, per se.

The final one is a different subject. Who hasn't rebought a book he/she
forgot was already on the shelf, virtual or otherwise? For that matter, I
have purchased an e-book then purchased the print book JUST to get it signed
by an author at a convention. But that e-book version wasn't pirated, was
it? Could someone pirate a copy and forget it was there and buy one? Sure.
Is it the norm? Probably not.


>
>
> Don't kid yourself. While there are some lost sales in there, don't
> delude yourself into thinking that those were mostly customers who
> grabbed a free copy because it was available. Most of those were
> people looking for free content, and if yours wasn't available, they'd
> be reading someone else's.
>

Again, you hear only what you want to hear. I didn't say they were all lost
sales. In fact, I said several times they weren't, but you just have to try
and put words in my mouth that aren't there.

If you care to actually READ what I said, you would see that I was stating
that I know most of the people that pirate the books aren't buying the
books, because I know what I could do with even a fraction of the money I
see bleeding away in piracy. If they were buying even 1% of what I see
pirated, I would have that money in my budget, and it's not there. Ergo...


>
> Which you'd probably prefer, because you apparently believe that if
> they got one copy free, they won't be buying the next thing you write.
>

See above. Yes, I know the larger portion isn't buying the next book. Why?
Because I'd be seeing the sales from it. Since I'm not seeing those sales,
that means they aren't buying them, at least not in any numbers that
correlate to the amount of piracy I see happening. I've taken down more of
my books from certain sites than NY Times bestsellers have. If there was any
correlation between X pirated copies equals Y purchases, I'd be swimming in
money that isn't there.

Even comparing my own pirated (that I can see) to my sales, there's no hint
at all that piracy accounts for one red cent of what I bring in. I see sales
hikes at the normal times...new book out, sales at the site, promo push from
me... Not the month of or after or even three after I take down a larger
than usual amount of pirated books.

Why? Because the number of pirates actually buying the books after pirating
are low...not high, as you seem to want to believe. Just because you say you
buy them does not make the majority of pirates like you. That is a major
fallacy in your logic stream.

Beyond that, I try a different tack with pirate sites than many authors do.
When I take books DOWN, I put my free reads up, with a notice of how it may
be passed or not. In short, I will tell you where I draw the line then offer
free reads to the pirates in return.


>
> I've received pirated ebooks, and bought more by the authors I liked.
>  So I mostly buy from authors I know I like,
> and get free content (legit, I mean; a lot of publishers release the
> first book in a series as a free ebook when a new one comes out) as my
> only legit way of finding new content to buy.
>

If the content is offered for free legitimately, I have no problem with
this. If a friend does an incidental share with you, I already said I have
no problem with it. It's mass piracy that is killing us. Not that sort of
thing. No author in his/her right mind begrudges the former.


>
> Sometimes I look to awards--I've bought Epic winners because they were
> Epic winners. But "award-winning writing" doesn't mean "this book is
> to my tastes,"
>

Of course not! I only pay attention to reviews when I already know I agree
with that reviewer's tastes, for the same reason. Same thing with blurbs
from other authors on the book covers.


>
> I've got a short list of digital authors on my "buy *anything* when
> it's available" list--but no easy way of expanding that list; why
> should I risk purchasing something I might not like? I can't ask
> friends to loan or give me a copy of interesting-looking e-novels.
>

Now you're talking in circles. You DO ask, apparently, because you just said
you've gotten pirated books. And if it's a single incidental share, it's not
only nearly impossible to control, but who wants to waste the time to
control that?

In the meantime, your average indie author is going out of our way to
accommodate you. I offer free reads. I participate in free giveaways of the
first book in a series, from time to time. I have reviews and first chapters
and all sorts of ways for you to test the waters. I even have a rating scale
on my site to help readers find books to their comfort levels.

The only times I have had someone tell me they were upset with a purchase
from me, it was clear the person did NOT read the information provided by me
on the site or the publisher site. If someone purchases a short story and
thinks it's a novel, he/she was not paying attention. If someone purchases
something clearly marked as not having a HEA and gets upset, he/she is not
paying attention.

In the meantime, sites like Amazon, Fictionwise, ARe, OmniLit, and
Smashwords have free reads available every day. If you need ways to find
authors, I HIGHLY suggest checking out their reads, since they are offered
BY the authors and/or publishers to help you find things you might like to
read.


Brenna
-- 
http://www.brennalyons.com    http://www.facebook.com/brenna.lyons
2-time EPIC's e-Book Award WINNER! "Powers or no, the Kielan are their own
worst enemies, caught up in systematic, stagnated tradition, lost to the
hypocrisy of classism, and defenseless despite their psi powers. Time
Currents is a tale that I won’t soon forget." Patrice F. for Joyfully
Reviewed


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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