Re: International E-book Sales Restrictions Explained

On Sat, 16 Jun 2012, joseph harris wrote:

> You seem to have forgotten then that this was about using a digital file
> to create an image on canvass, Hayden's proposition.

Perhaps you have recalled some other discussion, column, or posting.

Your comment above startled me -- I had read PNH's original item, and I didn't 
recall anything like this. So I went back and re-read it, looking for this.
Then I tried again, using the most liberal interpretation of what PHN wrote.

What you are suggesting he said is not there.

The only mess he refers to is that this system -- the ebook selling system, not 
copyright -- annoys customers. I tried pointing out, possibly not explicitly 
enough, that it was well within the scope of existing copyright for authors and 
publishers to annoy their customers less, and to have those customers feel they 
are not being treated unfairly. I stand by that suggestion - businesses, 
including publishers and authors, would do well to simultaneously make money, 
be fair, and not annoy their customers.

Moreover, the extent of PHN suggesting doing something different than things 
are done today extends only as far as "Does the book industry need to be 
rethinking how it handles this stuff? Yep. Is it? I think it¢s starting to."
This is nowhere near the storming of the copyright gates that would seem to be 
inferred from your descriptions.

> Stores are middlemen, and are as bound by the limitations of an edition as 
> anyone else under the copyright laws. Booksellers are not exempt from laws 
> properly passed by the legislature of the country in which they exist.

Stores own their inventory. Really, they do. Even books.

On the foreign sale - one key point to note, however, is that Amazon is likely 
not considered to be importing books into other countries. The *buyers* are 
importing them. The sale has effectively happened in the US. If Amazon held the 
responsibility for those works arriving in the UK, then they would also hold 
the responsibility for paying duties and tariffs - not to mention sales taxes - 
in the UK. Amazon is very careful about where it has nexus, not just by 
country, but by state, which would trigger it having to deal with these issues.

It's not too much different than a UK citizen taking a 2 hour vacation in 
the US, buying a book with their credit card, and bringing it home with them. 
For such a short visit, there may be no duty exemption, and the UK resident has 
the responsibility to declare the goods as something they are importing and pay 
duties owing.

The other key point is the degree to which bookstores are middlemen. Bookstores 
are the one buying from the publisher, and if the stores are actually buying 
the book, that would exhaust the distribution rights. (Key point - not the 
copying right, just the distribution right.) My rough understanding is that 
bookstores do buy the books, and they are invoiced for them. The fact that they 
can return them for credit, and in fact may never actually pay for many of the 
books on their shelves does not change the point that this is a sale of the 
book.

The exception would be if the books are tranferred under an agency agreement,
where the bookstore is contractually an agent of the publisher. Then there is 
no actual sale, more like a transfer of inventory. But agency is not common in 
bookstores for printed books.

> 'First sale', by whatever name you refer to it, relates to the rights of the 
> consumer. Bookshops, physical or virtual, are not consumers but middlemen.

"First sale" is from the copyright holder - in most cases, the publisher. There 
is no mention of consumers or middlemen in that legislation, only copyright 
holders and "the public" - everyone else, including bookstores.

Perhaps this is different in the UK?

>> Amazon buys the physical book from its distributor, then can turn around and 
>> sell it to someone overseas. They can do that because of first sale: once 
>> they buy the copy from the distributor, it's theirs.

> That is so wrong that I hardly know how to explain to you. If your
> reference is to traditional publishing then the system is quite complex,
> but the essential point is the store remains a middleman and does not
> have the rights of a consumer under variations of second hand selling.

Yes, actually, they do. They have the rights of "the public".

>> to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord."
>
> Repeat after me "a phonorecord is not a book".

Yes, of course not. ???? That's why the legislation states "copy *OR* 
phonorecord". "copy" is the part that refers to books.

> It is in fact very rare for a bookshop to own any book on its shelves.

"Have paid for?" Might be unlikely. "Own?" Almost certainly. "Own but can 
return for credit?" Also almost certainly.


: chris smith ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
: nihil tam munitum quod non expugnari pecunia possit - cicero :

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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