Re: RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #362 - 8 msgs

Wasalaam Kate and everyone,

Kate asked "On another topic, does anyone know of any women who dont wear
hijab while
praying?  what is the source of this anyway.  I can see a case from hadith
for hijab all the time, but not much to justify hijab for prayer only."

I do not wear hijab for praying.  I don't see anything wrong if one does,
but I don't beleive it is required.  There is nothing to justify hijab for
praying that I've ever seen.

Also I understand that only 1/10th of hadith have been translated in English
(is this true?) and that there are many hadith that we don't know of or are
never shown...probably b/c the elite don't want us to know.  However, it
might be true that somewhere there is some sort of hadith dealing with this
that we don't know about. (so I might be doing something wrong).

Laura Hussain

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kate Ahmad" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 7:54 PM
Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol
1 #362 - 8 msgs


> Salaam,
> I really dont like it when people take my words out of context.  To even
> compare men and women praying together with pornography and drug abuse is
> stupid and proves nothing at all.
> If a man sees standing near a woman at the mosque as a test - then he is a
> man of weak iman.  It is only in segregated societies where this kind of
> innocent and insignificant event would mean anything at all.
> For me, I would concentrate more in prayer if I knew I stood as an equal
> with my brothers before God.
>
> On another topic, does anyone know of any women who dont wear hijab while
> praying?  what is the source of this anyway.  I can see a case from hadith
> for hijab all the time, but not much to justify hijab for prayer only.
>
> Wa'salaam
> Aisha
>
> >From: "Yamin Bismilla" <[email protected]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1
> >#362 - 8 msgs
> >Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:03:41 -0500
> >
> >Slaams
> >
> >Why?  Why not?  Freedom!  Sure, lets give everyone all the choices and
see
> >what happens.  Lets serve liquor in schools.  They will make a choice to
> >drink or not.  Lets have nude posters of Britney Spears and Vin Diesal
> >dangling from every tower.  People will simply lower their gaze.
Legalize
> >all drugs might be good too.  Obviously this is an exxageration ;)  But
why
> >not?  Give the people freedom!  It's all about balance and where to draw
> >what line.  Or lets not draw any lines.  I think it would be interesting.
> >Run for president.  I'll move to the States and vote for you.
> >
> >I'm not concerned about fitna, but I'm not going to ignore any side of
the
> >argument and just start leaping from extremities believing I have
> >eveyrthing
> >figured out.  Seriosly though, I could care less if men and women pray
> >together, but I'm sure some people have a problem with it. I'm not going
to
> >ignore their views.  I, unfortunately, am not divine, and I don't know
> >where
> >all the boundries of the world lie.  That is for us to guess, and for God
> >to
> >judge.  If you feel alone at the back of the mosque, I think you need to
> >get
> >more women to the mosque; but I guess that mosque elite is quite
powerful.
> >
> >There are always plenty of tests of life.  Perhaps our 15 minutes at the
> >mosque should be a solemn time, free from 'these' tests so we can fully
> >focus on prayer?  no?  We have the other 22+ hours or so to be bombarded
> >with any barrage of tests.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Message: 1
> > > From: "Kate Ahmad" <[email protected]>
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE:
> > > ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #360 - 3
> > >  msgs
> > > Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 15:36:15 +1100
> > > Reply-To: [email protected]
> > >
> > > Salaam,
> > > I return your question back to you?  Why should men and women
> > > not pray
> > > together?
> > > That is my point - freedom.  If you are so concerned about
> > > fitna - then
> > > remove yourself from the main body of people, but dont force
> > > people to be
> > > apart.  Part of the joy of group salat is standing next to
> > > fellow muslims.
> > > I know that I am often on my own down the back when I go to
> > > the mosque for
> > > Isha, and it is disheartening.  When I pray I dont think of
> > > how good looking
> > > the man next to me is - and no good muslim would - so let us control
> > > ourselves rather than creating situations where we dont have
> > > to.  If there
> > > are no tests in life - then we can never improve as people.
> > > And while overt
> > > temptation is silly, there shouldn't be a problem with us
> > > lowering our gaze
> > > around fully clothed men and women in a mosque,
> > >
> > > Wa'salaam
> > > Aisha
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Yamin Bismilla" <[email protected]>
> > > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > >To: <[email protected]>
> > > >Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: ProgressiveMuslims
> > > digest, Vol 1
> > > >#360 - 3 msgs
> > > >Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:07:21 -0500
> > > >
> > > >Slaams,
> > > >
> > > >Well while I'm sure some mosques have a 'elite' I think a
> > > big part of islam
> > > >is recognizing our faults.  Why should men and women pray
> > > together?    Why
> > > >not pray separately but equally?  Why would a woman feel
> > > inferior praying
> > > >alongside her fellow woman instead of with men?  Why
> > > shouldn't women lead
> > > >their own prayers with women as the prayer leaders?
> > > >
> > > >I'm sorry to say, but believing that you can totally remove
> > > sexuality from
> > > >any person(man or woman) is ridiculous.  No person can be without
> > > >sexuality,
> > > >just as people cannot be without some measure of happiness, honour,
> > > >sadness...We all have wants and needs and recognizing that
> > > is crucial for
> > > >all.
> > > >
> > > >This is not to say anything of the hijab/burka/niqaab or any
> > > such things,
> > > >but I'm speaking specifically of the segregated mosque situation.
> > > >
> > > >Slaam,
> > > >
> > > >Yameen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Salaam,
> > > > > I agree, and I also thought the letter was great.  Being in
> > > > > australia I cant
> > > > > offer my support in person, but I would like to in some
> > > other form.
> > > > > Do you think muslims over sexualise the female body, or
> > > perhaps its
> > > > > something else?  To me, it seems a lot about keeping
> > > women in a less
> > > > > powerful position than men.  Everything from hijab,
> > > > > segragated mosques, the
> > > > > lack of female imams etc - they all add up to make women
> > > inferior and
> > > > > submissive to the will of men.  The hijab, progressing to the
> > > > > niqaab and
> > > > > burqa really serves to depersonalise women - and women
> > > can never be
> > > > > prominent in society if they have no identity.  So - if you
> > > > > cover your wife,
> > > > > and make her stay at home, or in a back room at the mosque -
> > > > > you can be sure
> > > > > she will never have any influence on the outside world.
> > > > > Thats why you see 2
> > > > > year old girls in hijab - its not a sexual thing - its a
> > > power thing.
> > > > > The whole situation is ridiculous.......... why have muslims
> > > > > come to this
> > > > > point where most of our effort go into rabidly enforcing
> > > > > rules to keep women
> > > > > out of public life, in fear that they might incite the
> > > > > dreaded fitna!!!?
> > > > > Insha'allah women will one day pray with men, and maybe even
> > > > > behind a female
> > > > > imam one day - that would be fantastic!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Wa'salaam
> > > > > aisha
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >ProgressiveMuslims mailing list
> > > >[email protected]
> > > >http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Hot chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to
> > > http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/default.asp
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --__--__--
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 00:06:35 -0500
> > > From: [email protected]
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE:
> > > ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol
> > >  1 #360 - 3 msgs
> > > Reply-To: [email protected]
> > >
> > > I think that anytime a man can't focus on his deen and needs
> > > arbitrary
> > > barriers to keep him from folding under "temptation" . . .
> > > WHILE IN SALAAT
> > > AT THE MASJID, he's seriously on the wrong track. that has nothing
> > > whatsoever to do with the sister who might be standing next to him or
> > > making salaat elsewhere in the space or away from it
> > > (unfortunately for
> > > some of our sisters).
> > >
> > > I never understood this concept in the religion and the more
> > > and more I
> > > think about it, it's because Allah's blessed me with a sense
> > > of reason and
> > > a a moral compass from birth. People have seriously corrupted
> > > and twisted
> > > the religion. In fact, I don't think this is a part of the
> > > religion at all,
> > > I think it's something people just came up with to serve their own
> > > purposes. The Qur'an speaks of modesty and averting our gaze,
> > > not banishing
> > > behind screens and fold of fabric our sisters, mothers,
> > > daughters, and
> > > female companions and relations otherwise.
> > >
> > > The angels on our shoulder are making a note of our actions
> > > whether they be
> > > sincere salaat or disengenuous excuses for distractions.
> > >
> > > When will we wake up and realize that the distinctions we
> > > make matter not
> > > to allah and won't make a dime worth of difference during the
> > > reckoning?
> > >
> > > Without a doubt, all who come in peace and sincerity should
> > > and must be
> > > allowed to pray together.
> > >
> > > Enough of this angry, incoherent rant,
> > > moo  :(
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --On Wednesday, February 04, 2004 3:36 PM +1100 Kate Ahmad
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Salaam,
> > > > I return your question back to you?  Why should men and
> > > women not pray
> > > > together? That is my point - freedom.  If you are so concerned about
> > > > fitna - then remove yourself from the main body of people,
> > > but dont force
> > > > people to be apart.  Part of the joy of group salat is
> > > standing next to
> > > > fellow muslims.  I know that I am often on my own down the
> > > back when I go
> > > > to the mosque for Isha, and it is disheartening.  When I pray I dont
> > > > think of how good looking the man next to me is - and no good muslim
> > > > would - so let us control ourselves rather than creating
> > > situations where
> > > > we dont have to.  If there are no tests in life - then we can never
> > > > improve as people.  And while overt temptation is silly,
> > > there shouldn't
> > > > be a problem with us lowering our gaze around fully clothed
> > > men and women
> > > > in a mosque,
> > > >
> > > > Wa'salaam
> > > > Aisha
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > From: "Yamin Bismilla" <[email protected]>
> > > > > Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE:
> > > ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol
> > > > > 1
> > > > ># 360 - 3 msgs
> > > > > Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:07:21 -0500
> > > > >
> > > > > Slaams,
> > > > >
> > > > > Well while I'm sure some mosques have a 'elite' I think a
> > > big part of
> > > > > islam is recognizing our faults.  Why should men and women pray
> > > > > together?    Why not pray separately but equally?  Why
> > > would a woman
> > > > > feel inferior praying alongside her fellow woman instead
> > > of with men?
> > > > > Why shouldn't women lead their own prayers with women as
> > > the prayer
> > > > > leaders?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm sorry to say, but believing that you can totally
> > > remove sexuality
> > > > > from any person(man or woman) is ridiculous.  No person
> > > can be without
> > > > > sexuality,
> > > > > just as people cannot be without some measure of
> > > happiness, honour,
> > > > > sadness...We all have wants and needs and recognizing
> > > that is crucial
> > > > > for all.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is not to say anything of the hijab/burka/niqaab or any such
> > > > > things, but I'm speaking specifically of the segregated mosque
> > > > > situation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Slaam,
> > > > >
> > > > > Yameen
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Salaam,
> > > > > > I agree, and I also thought the letter was great.  Being in
> > > > > > australia I cant
> > > > > > offer my support in person, but I would like to in some
> > > other form.
> > > > > > Do you think muslims over sexualise the female body, or
> > > perhaps its
> > > > > > something else?  To me, it seems a lot about keeping
> > > women in a less
> > > > > > powerful position than men.  Everything from hijab,
> > > > > > segragated mosques, the
> > > > > > lack of female imams etc - they all add up to make
> > > women inferior and
> > > > > > submissive to the will of men.  The hijab, progressing to the
> > > > > > niqaab and
> > > > > > burqa really serves to depersonalise women - and women
> > > can never be
> > > > > > prominent in society if they have no identity.  So - if you
> > > > > > cover your wife,
> > > > > > and make her stay at home, or in a back room at the mosque -
> > > > > > you can be sure
> > > > > > she will never have any influence on the outside world.
> > > > > > Thats why you see 2
> > > > > > year old girls in hijab - its not a sexual thing - its
> > > a power thing.
> > > > > > The whole situation is ridiculous.......... why have muslims
> > > > > > come to this
> > > > > > point where most of our effort go into rabidly enforcing
> > > > > > rules to keep women
> > > > > > out of public life, in fear that they might incite the
> > > > > > dreaded fitna!!!?
> > > > > > Insha'allah women will one day pray with men, and maybe even
> > > > > > behind a female
> > > > > > imam one day - that would be fantastic!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wa'salaam
> > > > > > aisha
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list
> > > > > [email protected]
> > > > >
> > > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > Hot chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to
> > > > http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/default.asp
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list
> > > > [email protected]
> > > >
> > > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >ProgressiveMuslims mailing list
> >[email protected]
> >http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hot chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to
> http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/default.asp
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ProgressiveMuslims mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims