Re: on original sin

I don't think you understand what I was saying, Afdhere.  Catholics are Christians.  I will thank you not to make the mistake again.  You have been informed what a Christian is.

1.  Belief in the Trinity
2.  Belief in Jesus as Salvation
3.  Belief that Jesus, while being God's Son, is also God.

As I said, BARRING EARLY CHRISTIANS WHO ONLY BELIEVED IN JESUS'S TEACHINGS AND NOT IN THE DIVINITY OF JESUS.  That religion no longer exists.  The closest approximation to it is Islam.

All Christians believe the above 3 concepts.  Catholics also believe this.  What part of this don't you understand?  Whatevery you've read of St. Augustine has nothing to do with the current definition among all Christians.  Currently, if someone doesn't beleive in the divinity of Christ then they are not Christians.  Ask any Christian.

As far as the quote you got from one person off the internet simply because this person, a Christian, has a different idea than a Catholic means a Catholic is not a Christian?  Does that mean a Shia is not a Muslim?  How about a Sufi, a Whirling Dervish?

Like Joyce I was raised Catholic.  And while there are serious theological problems in Catholicism (which by the way are the same exact problems with all religions naming themselves Christian...Jesus as God) keeping me from staying with the religion of my family, I do get terribly angry when people ignorantly claim knowledge of it when they don't have it.

Also do not end your responses with hehe or haha.  It is not funny or respectful.  Do not quote St Augustine again as it has nothing to do with this particular point.  

When I put Forgiveness of Sins on the post it was because I was showing you that Baptism forgives sins for Catholics, including Original Sin which is why Catholics baptises babies.  This was quoted from the booklet called "Outlines of the Catholic Faith".  Maybe if you go back and read it you will understand it. 

Laura Hussain

  




----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Afdhere Jama 
  To: [email protected] 
  Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 2:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] on original sin



  salam,

  like i told joyce before, catholicism is different. the concept was formulated by st. augustine -- who interestingly enough -- was manichaeist (which is a good source of his concept of 'original sin' in my opinion)... who later went back to belief in christ... and much of his teachings have very odd similarities with that faith. and i really don't know the purproses for the catholic church to accept them... as they are most definitely not biblical at all.

  and, yes, of course god is forgiving. this is why i don't worry about non-muslims. if someone is good, i have a deep believe that god will forgive them... regardless of what they call themselves.

  afdhere


  Afdhere Jama 
  Editorial Director 
  HURIYAH Publications 
  S A N F R A N C I S C O 
  [email protected]
  http://www.huriyahmag.com

  >From: "Laura" >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: >Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] on original sin >Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:54:13 -0500 > >Afdhere, > >Christians do believe children are born with original sin. At least Christians in the Catholic church. That is why a baby is baptized soon after birth. If the baby dies she will not go to hell forever. > >As far as my experience is other Christians beleive in original sin, but they do not believe a baby will go to hell if she dies . The baptism of older children is to wash away the same sin and to confirm their having been saved by believing in Jesus. Please note, the Christians still believe in original sin, but they do not believe a young child will be punished in the afterlife for it. This is not necessarily theologically sound with the idea of original sin, but that seems to be the way they have reconciled the abhorrent idea of a baby going to hell. > >From the book "Outlines of the Catholic Faith" distributed by the Catholic Church. > >"The Forgiveness of Sins. A. Sin is an offence in thought, word, desire, deed or neglect. B. There are two kinds of sin, ORIGINAL SIN and ACTUAL SIN. C. Original sin is the guilt of the sin of Adam in his disobedience to God. D. All people are born with original sin except the Blessed Virgin Mary and Jesus Christ...." > >It goes on further to explain with exerpts from the Bible and church documents: > >"Although he was made by God in a state of holiness from the very dawn of history man abused his liberty at the urging of the Evil One. Man set himself against God and sought to find the fulfillment apart from God. (Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, 13). 'Through one man sin entered the world, and with sin death, death thus coming to all men inasmuch as all sinned.' (Rom. 5,12). 'It is human nature so fallen, stripped of the grace that clothed it, injured in its own natural powers and subjected to the dominion of death, that is transmitted to all men, and it is in this sense that every man is born to sin." (Paul VI, Professio fidei). > > Following is the section on Baptism > >"Baptism. A. The Sacrament of Baptism cleanses us from original sin. B. In those of us who have the use of reason Baptism also removes actual sin and the temporal punishment due to sin. C. In Baptism we are reborn as children of God, made members of his church, and heirs to the kingdom of heaven. D. Baptism permanently relates us to God and is necessary for salvation. > >Now, Afdhere, compare this with the statements in the Quran that no one will be asked to bear the weight of anyone elses sin. I will find that verse if you like. That one verse is enough to discredit the idea of original sin in Islam. Also there are verses stating that God is merciful and rewards for good but punishes lightly for sins. Again, it is not merciful to condemn all of mankind forever for the sins of the forefathers. > >It is true that the Quran often times has a hellfire and brimstone type style to it stating that if you don't beleive that you will be going to the hellfire. But oftentimes I think it is not only meant as an exhortation to believe, but to comfort the believers who were being persecuted and isolated. And also almost invariabley there is a disclaimer at the end saying, but Allah saves who he pleases. So even so, if one doesn't believe, there are "loopholes" because God is all-powerful. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Afdhere Jama > To: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 11:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] on original sin > > > > salam, > > christians don't believe children are with sin... until they reach the age to tell difference. for example, if a child dies, christians believe s/he will go to heaven. and when they reach the age to tell the difference in the world, if they disbelieve in christ, then they live with the original sin. tell me the difference between that and the islamic view of the verses 2:38-39... where if you disbelieve in god's guidance when you reach that age, you face the eternal punishment for the original sin (i.e, what brings 2:38-39 in the first place) ? no difference at all, right? > > > afdhere > > > > > > Afdhere Jama > Editorial Director > HURIYAH Publications > S A N F R A N C I S C O > [email protected] > http://www.huriyahmag.com > > >From: "Na'eem Jeenah" >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: [email protected], [email protected] >Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] on original sin >Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 18:04:26 +0200 > >na'eem > >The original sin idea doesn't "address the capacity of >humans to do evil", it posits that humankind has done >evil - collectively - through Adam and Eve. And hence >every human being is born with sin. There is no such >equivalent in Islam, imo. The Islamic view is that human >beings have the capacity to deviate from the path of >truth, but that every human being is born in a state of >_fitrah_. Big difference, imho. > >na'eem > >On 6 Feb 2004 at 7:42, [email protected] wrote: > > > Yeah, not the same . . . analogous, as in 'the closets thing' they > > both address the capacity of human's to do evil, and that is where the > > similarities end I suppose. > > >_______________________________________________ >ProgressiveMuslims mailing list >[email protected] >http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Optimize your Internet experience to the max with the new MSN Premium Internet Software. _______________________________________________ ProgressiveMuslims mailing list [email protected] http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims 


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