Re: on original sin

salam, laura,

jannah/garden is arabic word that just means garden. i think it depends on the context. and it really doesn't matter where this garden was on earth or somewhere else, for all we know paradise is on this earth but it is definitely on a different dimension... where shame, sin, destruction, etc were not part of... with the exception of one thing. a test. i must say i do like the way judaism looks at; the tree of life (i.e, where you actually start to live, with the ups and downs... of which is true then humans shouldn't be sorry at all.)

as for the devil being there, well it was a test.... so of course the test would be there.

as for the personality of adam/eve as real people, i really don't know. i don't think it really matters. but the qur'an does use them like they were real people (like "o children of adam," "oh don't go wrong like your parents", "we took adam's progeny" etc etc etc )

as for adam/eve facing eternal hell, did you read the verse where it states what happens to their children if they do not follow god's guidance? only commen sense to believe the same was in store for the couple until god forgave them.

afdhere

Afdhere Jama
Editorial Director
HURIYAH Publications
S A N F R A N C I S C O
[email protected]
http://www.huriyahmag.com

>From: "Laura" >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: >Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] on original sin >Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:30:19 -0500 > >The scholar of the Quran I'm reading states that the Garden they were expelled from is a garden on earth. I understand what you are saying about all mankind being sent to earth as a punishment, but that is not what I believe from these verses. > >I don't read Arabic so I don't know what words mean Garden and which words mean Paradise or if both words mean the same thing and can only be determined through context. In the Christian belief the Garden of Eden is a place on earth, not in heaven. The punishment was pain and death. In Quran the only punishment is that they must "go forth" from this Garden. Apparently
this Garden wasn't completely like paradise b/c Iblis was there and able to tempt. So the temptation of the world was there from the start. > > I can see how "there is for you in the earth an abode and a provision for a time" might be interpreted in favor of your opinion that all of mankind has been punished for Adam and Eve's sins and being cast out of heaven. But looking at the rest of the Quran we know this can not be true. There are quite a few verses that say people will not be wronged or punished for other sins. > >Pain and death simply exist for us. They are not a punishment but a trial to test our faith. There are verses in the Quran that state this as well. It is my understanding that that is why we exist in the first place. Whle its true that some problems come from our own sins, it is stated in the Quran that we will be tested through these things. > >I do
not get where you are certain that Adam was facing eternal Hell until God turned to him. It doesn't really say that.... > >Lastly, many things in the Quran are allegorical. Don't you think this might be one of them? Do you believe there was an Adam and an Eve? Don't you think that the story shows that if you do wrong God will not forsake you and will forgive you? That God still provides for you? That God is Merciful? > >Laura Hussain > > > > >Laura Hussain > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Afdhere Jama > To: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 2:10 PM > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] on original sin > > > > salam, nermeen and itrath, > > actually, god already knew that man would be placed in the earth before telling the angels, just as god summoned adam/eve and their
progeny from the future. and like god said, god has "ghaib"(the knowledge of the future) [see 2:33] > > the intention of god is separate from god's power of premonition-- where god knows what the human will do with what god presents to the human, just as the justice of punishment is separate from his intention. god's intention is what god does. for example, god put adam/eve in the garden. of course, god fully well knew they wouldn't stay there long ... but that was neither his intention nor his will... but the human's "foolish" choice :) > > > > afdhere > > > > > > Afdhere Jama > Editorial Director > HURIYAH Publications > S A N F R A N C I S C O > [email protected] > http://www.huriyahmag.com > > >From: Nermeen Ismail >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] on original sin >Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:53:01 -0800 (PST) > > > > > > > being sent to earth was not part of the punishment. > > repentance and > > forgiveness came first. > > > > itrath > >Absolutely. The verse that talks about the first time >God told the angels about human creation indicates >that from the very beginning the intention was for >humans to be on earth. It is a feature not a >bug/punishment!. > >Salam > > > > > > > > on 2/6/04 8:47 AM, Afdhere Jama at > > [email protected] wrote: > > > > > > > > salam, sister eileen, > > > > > > well in the qur'an, the punishment for adam and > > eve's sin was that they were > > > put in a world where they had to fight sin all the &
gt; > time. me thinks we all face > > > that punishment, no? and, yes, we are tainted as > > well. in the qur'an, god > > > threatens adam and eve's descendants, after he > > forgives them: > > > > > > "We said; 'go from this (garden), surely my > > guidance will come to you and then > > > whoever follows my guidance neither shall fear nor > > grief. and as for those who > > > disbelieve and reject my guidance, they are the > > inmates of the hell-fire; in > > > it they shall abide.'"(qur'an, 2:38-39) > > > > > > so, what that says is that anyone who does not > > believe in god's guidance (the > > > prophets, books, etc) will face the original sin's > > forever punishment, not > > > just the immediate punishment alone (which all > > good
and bad humans face.) now > > > how the heck does that differ from christians' > > belief that those who > > > disbelieve in christ are not saved from the > > original sin? > > > > > > it is not a matter of being 'able' to sin, it is a > > matter of cleansing > > > ourselves from a sin... daily. it is what > > traditional muslims call jihad el > > > nafs or the struggle of the soul-- that constant > > fight with evil... in us and > > > around us. > > > afdhere > > > > > > > > > Afdhere Jama > > > Editorial Director > > > HURIYAH Publications > > > S A N F R A N C I S C O > > > [email protected] > > > http://www.huriyahmag.com > > > > > > > >> From: "kas2eileen" >Reply-To: > >
[email protected] >To: > > >> >Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] on > > original sin >Date: Fri, 6 Feb > > >> 2004 08:18:08 -0500 > >salaam afdhere, I think > > you are confusing original sin > > >> with being able to sin. Original sin means we > > inherit the taint and > > >> punishment for a sin committed by others from > > birth and must overcome it. > > >> That is against the Koran. Free choice to sin and > > the expectation of it and > > >> the responsibility for it, still only puts > > punishment on the sinner. That is > > >> different. Eileen > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Afdhere Jama > To: > > >> [email protected] > Sent: > > Thursday, Februa
ry 05, 2004 > > >> 9:37 PM > Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] on > > original sin > > > > salam, > > >> > > actually, original sin is as much part of > > islam as it is in christianity. > > >> and in many sense, far more "driven" in islam > > than it is in christiantiy. > > > > >> while christianity blames us for adam, the qur'an > > actually sort of blames all > > >> of mankind. for example, 7:172 of the qur'an > > talks about bring us all from > > >> the future... to bear witness of god's existance > > and oneness. and then in > > >> 33:72, the qur'an talks about mankind choosing > > the responsiblity to choose, > > >> which all of the other creations apparently > > refused. > > also, in the qur'an, > &
gt; >> god warned adam and eve not to approach the tree > > or that they would be of the > > >> devil. so the choice was actually all theirs. > > > > that said, traditional > > >> islam teaches that the world is 'transit' and > > that we are here to 'prove' > > >> ourselves to god--- that yes, god is one... that > > yes, we can follow god's > > >> orders, etc. > > yes, we don't walk around saying > > "oh, we are so sinful" ... > > >> and yes, each individual is responsible for their > > actions. this is because > > >> god forgave adam and eve and hence we all have a > > 'second' chance to "prove" > > >> ourselves. > > i think the 'original sin' is more > > of a abrahamic-faith rather > > >> than 'christianity' or 'islam'
or whatever. > > > > > > afdhere > > > > > Afdhere > > >> Jama > Editorial Director > HURIYAH Publications > > > S A N F R A N C I S C O > > > >> [email protected] > http://www.huriyahmag.com > > > > >From: "Caridad" > > >> >Reply-To: > > [email protected] >To: > > >> [email protected] > > >Subject: Re: > > >> [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: > > ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #364 - 9 > > >> msgs >Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 08:49:53 -0500 > > > >Salaam aleikum, > >I'm new here > > >> to some of you and am a returned member for those > > of you who >remember me > > >> from before. I just got back from living in > &gt
; Southern Africa (a >fabulous 9 > > >> months . . . I so wish I could just settle > > there), so have >returned to the > > >> list. > >I would like to respond to just one > > thing that y2 said: > > > I'm > > >> always reminded of a the 'original sin'. God told > > Adam do not eat >from > > > > >> this tree. God did NOT give Adam a reason like > > the tree is poisoness or >the > > >> > > tree will affect your state of mind...God > > simply gave Adam a direct > > >> order. > > Adam/Eve eventually ate from the tree, > > and that was the original > > >> sin. A > > simple insignificant innocent act of > > eating a fruit. > > > > The > > >> orignal sin was not rape, murder, theft...It was &gt
; > disobeying a simple > > > > >> insignificant order from God. But it was more > > than that wasn't it. > > > >> >Charity's comment: > >I wanted to point out that > > original sin is actually a > > >> Christian theological >concept. Muslims believe > > that all people are born with > > >> innate goodness: >Fitrah. This theological > > concept says that ALL people are > > >> born muslim (with >a little 'm': submission to > > the Divine), with the innate > > >> nature to do good >and worship the One God, > > Allah. The theological concept of > > >> original sin >says that ALL people are born with > > this inherited original sin > > >> which >required the 'sacrifice' of Jesus to > > absolve, as well as the
idea that > > >> >peoples' inherant nature is to choose to sin. > > There is NO concept of > > >> >original sin in Islam. We 'people' are > > responsible for our own actions, not > > >> >those of Adam, Eve, or any other predecesor. >I > > have to say this difference > > >> is one of the main reasons for my choosing to >be > > a Muslim. For me it makes > > >> alot more sense . . . I like to meet people >and > > give them the benefit of the > > >> doubt. In most cases I find that people >are > > genuine, not out to hurt me or > > >> others consciously, etc. It is more in >tune with > > my innate optimism. With > > >> the idea of original sin, it means that >I would > > meet new people with the > > >> idea th
at this person's innate choice will >be > > evil, doing bad, trying to > > >> hurt, etc. So for me, the Muslim concept of > > >Fitrah is constantly reinforced > > >> in my contemplation of and experience in > > >Creation. > >I just wanted to make > > >> my voice heard :) he he he, and say hello to some > > of >the familiar faces > > >> here! > >-Charity > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >> >ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > > >[email protected] > > >> > > > >http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims > > > > > > >> > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> -
- > Get some great ideas here for your > > sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and > > >> beyond. > > _______________________________________________ > > ProgressiveMuslims > > >> mailing list > > [email protected] > > >> > > >http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims > > >=== message truncated === > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. >http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html > >_______________________________________________ >ProgressiveMuslims mailing list >[email protected] >http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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