RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #380 - 2 msgs

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> Sent: February 7, 2004 11:59 PM
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> Subject: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #380 - 2 msgs
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>    1. Re: RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol
>        1 #378 - 6 msgs ([email protected])
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> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 16:35:21 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE:
> ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol
>  1 #378 - 6 msgs
> Reply-To: [email protected]
>
> y2,
>
> Since the ball's rolling on this thread, I'd like to add my 2
> cents also.
>
> While you may not have an opinion, your post as well as the
> time you must
> have put into it certainly communicate to me that you have
> strong feelings
> on this issue . . . I think that we have those two things
> (strong feelings
> as well as careful effort and consideration in our posts) in common.

I wouldn't call them strong.  But yeah, I've read the koran several time
though, and I just don't see any justification for it.  But then I guess we
all come to the table with bias.  That's why I only presented all the VALID
arguments as I see them and not my view. Although I'm sure my arguments are
affected by my view.

>
> Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to be reading your post as making
> depression a metaphor for homosexuality. I beg to differ with that
> parallel. I have to ask - given all of the scientific study
> that has gone
> into BOTH of these facets of the human condition in the last
> 100 years as
> well as the new critical light being shed on homosexuality
> within Islam in
> particular - where's the progress in the way we think about
> these issues?
>
I would disagree.  It's the one of the best situations to use because it
makes one recognize we are part choice/learning..., part bodily tendancy
generally via chemicals.  People unwilling to accept this as a basis for
discussion are simply not in the reality of science.

Would u prefer if I used happiness instead of depression.  Okay fine.  There
are people who will tend to be more happier due to their bodies ability to
induce increased "happy" chemicals in the brain.  That's how the brain
works.  You want to get some sleep, take some melatonin to trick the body
into thinking its time to sleep.  I used depression because it too can be a
physical problem with the body or something that is more acquired through
your experience.  We even have anti-depression commercials out these days.
Its also recognized as a problem whereas most people would not think of
always being happy as a problem.

My main point is that it could be a choice for some, a genetic tendancy for
others.  I happen to think its both.  The cause of such does not affect the
morality of it.  In either case.  Just as the tendancy of sexual urges.  I'm
sure some people have hyper sexual drives.  That does make infidelity or
adultery or rape acceptable just because of their desires.  If it is morally
right, then we can think of it as a character trait.  If its morally wrong,
then perhaps it should be treated like depression often either by drugs or
by physciatry.

In summary then ;)  What's natural is not always moral.


> I would assert that people in both camps would find fault in your
> comparison simply because there seems to be a value judgment
> in what you're
> saying that slights them both.

That's good.  It should slight them both.  A good argument usually will.

It might be better if you're
> talking about
> them on the level of sin (which I do not agree is the case
> for either of
> these two states) to come from a place that is more
> scripturally-based. In
> effect, you might want to be more explicit and demonstrative
> in saying that
> it is Allah's judgment that people are under rather than your
> own or that
> of the prevailing Islamic social winds.

No, I don't care to dribble in scriptually-based arguments.  I'm pretty sure
u've read the koran and have made up ur interpretations.  We all generally
know the arguments, and I'm not going to argue of this verb or that noun
here or there. I don;t know arabic well enough to sit there and dabble if
some word could better be translated somehow.  Lot=case against
homosexuality if u come from that point of view.  The rest of the koran
always speaks of a man and a woman which tends to the heterosexual
lifestyle. Male servants promised in heaven can be taken as a sign of
homosexuality [52.24].  But hey, maybe they're just servants.  And things
allowed in heaven are not neccessarily allowed on Earth.  Heaven is bliss.

As the old joke goes.  If god promises 70 virgins in heaven (still never
found that in the koran), who am to argue.  Its supposed to be heaven! ;)

The Hadiths..well.  There we can go into scripture, but from what I've read,
its pretty much stacked against homosexuality.  But then nothing in the
hadiths can be thought of as 100% authentic.

Theres also the wya of life of the arabs and ottoman empires, but how they
lived has very little moral basis on modern life.  All it speaks of is how
they interpretated the same thing we're trying to interpret today Or how
religious they actually were.


No, that is not what I'm saying.  There are in my view and I'm sure in most
people's 2 kinds of sins.  Sins punishable or Earth, and sins punishable
only by God.  I don't think homosexualiy should be punished on Earth as long
as its 2 consenting adults.  However, whether a kid is brought up in a
Pakistani style madrassa or a western liberal school, they're being
brainwashed either way.  In this sense what values we extend in society is
going to effect them.  That is where the societies moral judgement of such
things which I would deem sins against God would fit in.

>
> I don't want to play Qur'an Jeopardy on the issue so I won't
> ask you to
> site verses or site any myself. I will, however, celebrate
> your right to
> challenge me in understanding my faith as I would hope is true in the
> converse case. I will also bear witness to this thought you shared.
>

I don't play Koranic Jeopardy with people.  The koran is a pretty clear and
reasonable book.  You can stretch some things which is fine and those things
that can be reinterpreted will be done so, and there is very little anyone
can say to challenge a reinterpretaion of something.  Especially some people
who don't even think the koran is authentic.

I've no desire to challenge ur faith.  I just like tossing in my mind state
of the situation.  I generally try not to state my opinions, unless someone
points them out.  I just present the arguments as I see them.  Generally
from both ends when that's possible.  Other times, things seem pretty set it
stone.  For example I think chapter 2 of the koran is explicity clear and
fair on Islamic use of force.  Room for discussion on details..for sure.
But I don't think there's room for a grand reinterpretation...it would just
be stretching it too much.

> (About sex ads on the Al Fatiha group's listserv - I'm not
> sure if this was
> brought up before y2's post or if that post was when the
> issue arose but in
> my experience, they are highly atypical and get deleted from my inbox
> immediately like all related solicitations  . . . wherever
> they may come
> from.)

Yeah, this was mentioned by a previous poster.  I forget his name, but its
there.  The guy from Norway I believe.

> I just hope that the quest to please Allah justly and
> compassion while also
> experiencing peace by being in His* good graces (which
> brought me not only
> back to my faith but also to this group) is what attracts all who
> participate in the faith in the first place and is what
> attracts us to this
> group in particular. Given your recent post, y2, I am sure
> that reasonable
> people can disagree and I will also grant my agreement with
> with the loose
> definition/example you offered of 'open-minded[ness]'
> constituting the idea
> that homosexuality may be (just as it may not be) a sin is
> the eyes of
> Allah.
>

Hey, we can disagree and agree to our minds content.

> I pray that He* will guide us all rightly and forgive us when we err
> whether knowingly, in desperation, or in ignorance. And I
> hope that there
> is room in Islam and in groups like the PMN for people who think and
> believe like you do . . .and for those who do not.
>
> Apologies in advance for any offenses/injury or ignorance on
> my end. Allah
> surely loves clarity so any thoughts that might contribute
> thereof are
> encouraged.
>
> PS: * = Anyone know why Yusuf Ali and others seem to be sometimes
> translating Allah in the first-person pronoun as "We" as in
> plural rather
> than singular? What does that have to do with the
> third-person translating
> as the singular masculine "He"?
>
> -Moo  :)
>
>
>
> --On Saturday, February 07, 2004 1:28 PM -0500 y2
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > No doubt I'm sure some people are born with a tendancy to
> be attracted to
> > the same sex.  Others simply make the choice.  People are born with
> > tendacies all the time. That doesn't neccessarily mean they
> should simply
> > embrace it.  I'm sure there are people who have a tendancy
> to be genuinly
> > depressed simply due to a genetic disorder (they cannot
> product the happy
> > chemicals in the brain).  Others are depressed for reasons of their
> > own/environment's making.  In either case, one should seek
> treatment for
> > that.  The notion that just because we are born with it or
> that it is
> > found in nature is reason enough to accept it is not
> sufficient to allow
> > it.  Male lions for example kill the offspring of other
> males when they
> > take over a pride.  This of course would be a crime of immeasurable
> > proportion in humanity.  But it is perfectly natural.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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