yameen-- on judaism, islam, races, etc

salaam, yameen,

we know historically that it was the muslims of bosnia (high majority then in places the holocaust took place) who were pushing for the holocaust in there. most christians were very sympathetic. serbians actually fought hitler. muslim leaders of the country were meeting the germany in planning the holocaust, etc. before the concentration camps, muslims destroyed the synagogues in sarajevo... and mass-murdered jewish women and children, etc. it is terrible.

and, yes, yameen, the holocaust was curried out by christians-- mainly catholic. the pope of that time was pretty friendly with hitler. and hitler did not take over germany, he was voted in-- after he published his inhumane book.

that said, the holocaust was more of a european thing than christian or muslim or any other religion per se. the only difference between muslim and christian europe is that catholics of europe (and everywhere) were "guided" by an anti-semite pope... now famous for being "hitler's pope." this makes it more 'religious.'

also, muslims never committed anything like that. europe murdered far more jews than the holocaust in 2000 years. people don't talk about this. it is just not politically correct :)

now, getting back to judaism vs. islam. like islam, judaism is a faith. in hebrew, the word for judaism -- yehudim -- means worshippers of yehweh (god.) of course, atheist jews don't worship no god :)

and, no, you can't compare islam with judaism. islam is only 1400 years old, judaism is about 4000 (forget the jewish year.) this means, it had more time to develop and destruct, if you will. we are finally now seeing muslims who are not identifying with islam but are muslims. it may not make sense to you but in about 1000 years, they will be pretty much accepted. also, muslims are now going through what jews went through two centuries ago-- extreme faith differences... such reform judaism and orthodox judaism. and the only reasons we are only 200 years behind is because of technology. jews in early 19th century did not have the internet. reform muslims (such as progressivemuslims.org, submission.org, etc) are growing drastically because of the internet.

and please don't worry about ethnicities. jews too have ethnic folk. there are jewish ethiopians, arabs, african-americans, chinese, etc-- and they are ALL -- first and foremost -- those races. have you ever read the biography of sammy davis, jr., the famous black jew? well, he -- like all blacks -- suffered racism in the '50s, 60s, etc. and the yemenite jews of israel are being disrciminated against just as the israeli arabs because they are arabs.

many jews who are ethnically jewish say they are "hebrews." (this is the case in israel, the most. and i should mention "hebrews" to me is just as religious as "jewish." but for these jews it is a way to tell the world they trace their ancestry back to israelites rather than religious per se.) the only jews who don't say that, who are not religiously jewish, are white jews. and this is because of course they can't claim hebrew blood. in fact, in israel, white jews get very upset when darker-skinned jews say they are hebrews :)

the only place where jewish/ethnic is confused is the u.s. and there is a history to that :) many americans, they can't really say they are "german" or whatever. they will tell you they are "15% german, 25% english, 40% french" etc. for white jews in america, they can only say "i'm jewish" -- and that is enough :-)) you see? anywhere else in the world, jews talk about their own ehtnicity. in america, like mentioned before, non-white jews like sammy davis jr. were known for their religious jewishood... not race :( even though people knew sammy was jewish -- and this was quite famous thing -- he was still mistreated for being black. he did not ceaze being black. connie chung is another example. even though she is jewish, no one cares about that. to most, she is just a chinese woman. now, barbra streisand :) EVERYBODY relates her to being jewish... before being white :-
P but that is america, what can i say.

afdhere

Afdhere Jama
Editorial Director
HURIYAH Publications
S A N F R A N C I S C O
[email protected]
http://www.huriyahmag.com

>From: "y2" >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: >Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #399 - 7 msgs >Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 03:17:53 -0500 > >Salaams Afdhere, > >I'm sure there were people who were muslim who took part in the holocaust. >Just as there were Jews and christians who participated on Germany's side >during WW2. Considering that Bosnia is about half Christian, half Muslim >the statement is still misleading. Even a statement like Christians >committed part of the holocaust is a rather dubious and misleading one. It >is far too encompassing. As of course, The allied side also had many >christian nations. Such statements, if they are to be used, must be put in >context of the entire mu
slim community. People of any religion have done >just about everything ;) Generally they are not, and the motives of people >who say such things is generally not a truthful one. If someone said >Bosnians took part in the holocaust, that would be a more accurate >statement. The world has generally been far more divided on >ethnicity/country than it has ever been by religion. > >As to the statement that you cannot compare judaism because its thousands of >years old. Why not? What does that have to do with anything? >Yes, we all know there are degrees of religiousness amoung people. Some >'athiest' muslims are ashamed to admit being athiest to some people and >might just say they are muslim for the sake of keeping the trouble down. >This is beside any point. We were discussing language and it is clear that >Islam is a religion and African, Arab, cau
casian....are ethnicities. The >mistake in question was comparing an ethnicity(african-americans) to a >religion (muslims). If this point is not clear, then I don't know what else >to say. > >Being Jewish is the same word as in ethnicity and in religion. Thus, in >this case, it is very easy to confuse the matter. For example, I've got a >family friend who is a Jewish Muslim. He is ethnically Jewish, but Muslim >by belief. But suppose someone (even the most educated person) asked him >what he was, and he said Jewish. They may assume he follows Judaism which >would be incorrect, though most certainly understandable as the words are >the same. This is what is confusing about the dual use of the term Jewish. > >A person say in Pakistan who is culturally muslim but converts to >Christianity would most likely use the term Pakistani for his >ethnic
ity/culture and Christian for his religion. I would love to meet one >of these moorish-christians and ask them what there ethnicity/religion is. >I would hope for the sake of language that they say morrocan-Christian or >some variant of that. Perhaps there are those 'muslims' who >think of islam as an ethnicity (I'VE NEVER MET ONE YET...maybe you >have)...well they are simply confusing the matter for everyone and should be >reeducated otherwise. > >On the side note ;) >Jewish attitude to ex-Jews (religiously) is due to several factors: > 1. Being jewish is a complex thing that blends >religion/ethnicity/culture... > 2 Not all Jews, but some do believe the Jewish-Arabraham bloodline is >special to God. > 3. Many Jews have been in the Western world for a long time and have thus >become more tolerant, just as any other peoples ha
ve. > 4. Many Jews after the holocaust and what not have probably become more >tolerant. > 5. The jewish community is still very small relatively speaking...and >smaller groups tend not to want to kill off each other > 6. They are also less orthodox in many cases as you mentioned > > >Islams treatment of ex-muslims is something that is horrific and is well >known. Especially in certain parts of the world. I'm always very skeptical >of anything in the hadiths as they are the words of men written, copied, and >translated by other men. They should never be taken as law, merely as a >possible guidance. But such is life and these countries simply must stop >applying the words of mortal men as the word of god. > >Yameen > > > > > Message: 3 > > From: "Afdhere Jama" > > To: progressivemuslims@progress
ivemuslims.com > > Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: > > ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #397 - 14 > > msgs > > Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:33:58 -0800 > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > >

salam, yameen,
> >

maybe you don't know but bosnian muslims took part in the > > holocaust.
> >

and almost 80% of arabs in america are christian. and most > > indians are not muslim. and most blacks are not muslim :)
> >

as for judaism, you can't compare it with islam or > > christianity. it is thousands of years older. that said, > > there are many, many muslims out there who are "culturally > > muslim" -- sometimes some of these "culturally muslims" are > > atheists. also, in places like spain and morroco, there are > > moorish-christians (or moors who have culturally been muslim > > but are now christian.)
> >

in judaism, unless you profess another faith in another > > god (i.e, jesus or allah or whatever,) you are jewish. so, > > like the muslim atheists, the atheist jews are not considered > > non-jewish. but certainly, for jews, when you become a "jew > > for allah" or a "jew for christ," you ceaze to be jewish. > >

on a side note, jewish attitude to non-jewish-jews > > and muslim attitude to non-muslim-muslims are totally > > different. of course we are talking about in religious area. > > amongst most of the muslims, a muslim who leaves islam is > > supposed to be killed (per hadithi law.. called > > "irtidad"/apostasy.) in judaism, an atheist jew is quite > > accepted. this is perhaps because most jews are not > > orthodox... and rely less on the jewish texts of yore. > > whatever the case, that is a
reality.
> >

in 2000, the world was shocked when a somali muslim who > > converted to christianity was sentenced to death in yemen. > > and in 1998, a muslim who converted to baha'i faith in iran > > was sentenced and executed. in 2002, a pakistani who > > converted to christianity was sentenced to death. (there are > > many, many other cases, as well, but not as famous.)
> >

the point is, jewish nuts have been very small. and > > certainly never could afford state to carry out their > > extremist beliefs about apostasy. so, jewish umbrella for > > non-believing jews was more tolerated.

> >

afdhere
> > >_______________________________________________ >ProgressiveMuslims mailing list >[email protected] >http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims

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