RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #399 - 7 msgs

Salaams Afdhere,

I'm sure there were people who were muslim who took part in the holocaust.
Just as there were Jews and christians who participated on Germany's side
during WW2.  Considering that Bosnia is about half Christian, half Muslim
the statement is still misleading.  Even a statement like Christians
committed part of the holocaust is a rather dubious and misleading one.  It
is far too encompassing.  As of course, The allied side also had many
christian nations.  Such statements, if they are to be used, must be put in
context of the entire muslim community.  People of any religion have done
just about everything ;)  Generally they are not, and the motives of people
who say such things is generally not a truthful one.  If someone said
Bosnians took part in the holocaust, that would be a more accurate
statement.  The world has generally been far more divided on
ethnicity/country than it has ever been by religion.

As to the statement that you cannot compare judaism because its thousands of
years old.  Why not?  What does that have to do with anything?
Yes, we all know there are degrees of religiousness amoung people.  Some
'athiest' muslims are ashamed to admit being athiest to some people and
might just say they are muslim for the sake of keeping the trouble down.
This is beside any point.  We were discussing language and it is clear that
Islam is a religion and African, Arab, caucasian....are ethnicities.  The
mistake in question was comparing an ethnicity(african-americans) to a
religion (muslims).  If this point is not clear, then I don't know what else
to say.

Being Jewish is the same word as in ethnicity and in religion.  Thus, in
this case, it is very easy to confuse the matter.  For example, I've got a
family friend who is a Jewish Muslim.  He is ethnically Jewish, but Muslim
by belief.  But suppose someone (even the most educated person) asked him
what he was, and he said Jewish.  They may assume he follows Judaism which
would be incorrect, though most certainly understandable as the words are
the same.  This is what is confusing about the dual use of the term Jewish.

A person say in Pakistan who is culturally muslim but converts to
Christianity would most likely use the term Pakistani for his
ethnicity/culture and Christian for his religion.  I would love to meet one
of these moorish-christians and ask them what there ethnicity/religion is.
I would hope for the sake of language that they say morrocan-Christian or
some variant of that.  Perhaps there are those 'muslims' <notice quotes> who
think of islam as an ethnicity (I'VE NEVER MET ONE YET...maybe you
have)...well they are simply confusing the matter for everyone and should be
reeducated otherwise.

On the side note ;)
Jewish attitude to ex-Jews (religiously) is due to several factors:
	1.  Being jewish is a complex thing that blends
religion/ethnicity/culture...
	2   Not all Jews, but some do believe the Jewish-Arabraham bloodline is
special to God.
	3.  Many Jews have been in the Western world for a long time and have thus
become more tolerant, just as any other peoples have.
	4.  Many Jews after the holocaust and what not have probably become more
tolerant.
	5.  The jewish community is still very small relatively speaking...and
smaller groups tend not to want to kill off each other
	6.  They are also less orthodox in many cases as you mentioned


Islams treatment of ex-muslims is something that is horrific and is well
known.  Especially in certain parts of the world.  I'm always very skeptical
of anything in the hadiths as they are the words of men written, copied, and
translated by other men.  They should never be taken as law, merely as a
possible guidance.  But such is life and these countries simply must stop
applying the words of mortal men as the word of god.

Yameen




 Message: 3
> From: "Afdhere Jama" <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE:
> ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #397 - 14
>  msgs
> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:33:58 -0800
> Reply-To: [email protected]
>
> <html><div style='background-color:'><P><BR>salam, yameen,</P>
> <P>maybe you don't know but bosnian muslims took part in the
> holocaust. </P>
> <P>and almost 80% of arabs in america are christian. and most
> indians are not muslim. and most blacks are not muslim :)</P>
> <P>as for judaism, you can't compare it with islam or
> christianity. it is thousands of years older. that said,
> there are many, many muslims out there who are "culturally
> muslim" -- sometimes some of these "culturally muslims" are
> atheists. also, in places like spain and morroco, there are
> moorish-christians (or moors who have culturally been muslim
> but are now christian.)</P>
> <P>in judaism, unless you profess another faith in another
> god (i.e, jesus or allah or whatever,) you are jewish. so,
> like the muslim atheists, the atheist jews are not considered
> non-jewish. but certainly, for jews, when you become a "jew
> for allah" or a "jew for christ," you ceaze to be jewish.
> <BR><BR>on a side note, jewish attitude to non-jewish-jews
> and muslim attitude to non-muslim-muslims are totally
> different. of course we are talking about in religious area.
> amongst most of the muslims, a muslim who leaves islam is
> supposed to be killed (per hadithi law.. called
> "irtidad"/apostasy.) in judaism, an atheist jew is quite
> accepted. this is perhaps because most jews are not
> orthodox... and rely less on the jewish texts of yore.
> whatever the case, that is a reality.</P>
> <P>in 2000, the world was shocked when a somali muslim who
> converted to christianity was sentenced to death in yemen.
> and in 1998, a muslim who converted to baha'i faith in iran
> was sentenced and executed.&nbsp;in 2002, a pakistani who
> converted to christianity was sentenced to death. (there are
> many, many&nbsp;other cases, as well, but not as famous.)</P>
> <P>the point is, jewish nuts have been very small. and
> certainly never could afford state to carry out their
> extremist beliefs about apostasy. so, jewish umbrella for
> non-believing jews was more tolerated. <BR></P>
> <P>afdhere</P>