RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #409 - 9 msgs
"y2" <[email protected]> Thu, 4 Mar 2004 02:21:40 -0500
| Newsgroups | gmane.culture.religion.muslim.progressive |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <000601c401b9$57037b40$0d02a8c0@rage> |
Salaams Inas, Well I'm not going to argue about the word literal. Perhaps it is the wrong word. A bit too strong for me. Yeah why not. Literal was perhaps too strong a word. How about this. I believe that everything in the koran is 100% relevent and nothign can be dismissed and i try and steer away from twisting the words. Like when the koran talks of marriage between a man and woman, I think it requires too much reinterpretation and twisting of words to allow for gay marriage. On the other hand, in the case of the 'men who don't need woman' (as its translated in the koran i'm reading), the term is vague enough to possibly mean gay. So, in that case, we can interpret it as such. We don't have to, but its possible. I hope you can see where I'm coming from with respect to what I meant by literal. well Inas, I don't know arabic well enough to know the difference between non-masculine men, men who don't have need of woman, and gay in arabic hundreds of years ago. I doubt any of us do. I would be surprised if even islamic scholors can figure out all the connotations and what not with 100% accuracy...What does that word mean in that verse is why I gave alternatives as to what it implies. Like I said, it could just mean castrated men or even just men who don't lust after woman. That word most probably does not mean literally 'non-masculine,' nor do I think we'd be able to agree on the proper translation of that word. So if we give the benefit of the doubt for the SAKE OF ARGUMENT that it does include homosexual men...then the rest of it possibly holds. But as you ask what about woman? On things the Koran does not specify, you can reasonably extend the meaning from the koran. So if we take the assumption from above, we can then assume that such non-feminite woman would exist as well and the interpretation holds. Yameen > > Message: 2 > From: "inas younis" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: > ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #408 - 10 > msgs > Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 20:38:05 -0600 > Reply-To: [email protected] > > <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE> > <P>interesting perspective.. Thank you for that. </P> > <P> what about women. If we take the quran literally. > Then we should literally interpret that ommission to mean what????</P> > <P>If you take the quran literally then there really is no > room for your interpretation as such. non masculine > means non masculine, not gay. Unless its explicit right?? > Isnt that what literal interpretaions literally mean... to be > literal means not to interpret but to take at face value. A > face value reading does not seem to reinforce > your reasonable and valid point of view. > <BR><BR></P></DIV> > <DIV></DIV>>From: "y2" <[email protected]> > <DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: [email protected] > <DIV></DIV>>To: <[email protected]> > <DIV></DIV>>Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: > ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #408 - 10 msgs > <DIV></DIV>>Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 21:20:08 -0500 > <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>>Salaams Feisal, > <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>>Well, we just went through a big thread on > this a few weeks ago. Obviously, > <DIV></DIV>>there are going to be other views, but here we > go anyways. Here's my view. > <DIV></DIV>>Bare in mind I do beleive in the literal > interpretation of the koran, and I > <DIV></DIV>>don't believe parts of it can be dismissed. > <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>>I don't think there is any room for homosexual > marriage per say in Islam. I > <DIV></DIV>>think the most 'accepting' Islam can be of > Homosexuals is to think of them > <DIV></DIV>>as a third sex. Kinda like how > North American Native Indians have > <DIV></DIV>>'two-spirited' people or any number of > cultures around the world think. The > <DIV></DIV>>koran, when speaking of marriage definitely > speaks in terms of a man and a > <DIV></DIV>>woman, so I believe the role of family is > still reserved solely for a man > <DIV></DIV>>and a woman. > <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>>However, there are mentions in the Koran and > in the hadiths of shall we call > <DIV></DIV>>them 'non-masculine' men (Koran > 24.31). I think they then have a role for > <DIV></DIV>>such people, that does not include the role of > a 'family' or that of the > <DIV></DIV>>masculine man. They are allowed > certain priveleges, such as to see women > <DIV></DIV>>unveiled...but they also do not have certain > priveleges, such as the right > <DIV></DIV>>to a family. Now whether or not > these non-masculine men applies to > <DIV></DIV>>'castrated males' or homosexuals or both I > don't know. But I think it is > <DIV></DIV>>reasonable to think it applies to homosexuals. > <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>>So basically, no I don't think homosexuals can > marry and have a family > <DIV></DIV>>within Islam. Of course, if you > don't take the Koran literally or feel you > <DIV></DIV>>can just dismiss certain aspects,well then > that's your perogative and a case > <DIV></DIV>>for anything and everything can be > made. I think if there is a role for > <DIV></DIV>>homosexuals in Islam, that is > it. There is a third possibility in that > <DIV></DIV>>these less masculine men should not be allowed > to be homosexuals, but should > <DIV></DIV>>simply not be sexual. > <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>>Yameen > <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > Message: 1 > <DIV></DIV>> > To: [email protected] > <DIV></DIV>> > Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 17:17:16 +0800 (SGT) > <DIV></DIV>> > From: Feisal Abdul Rahman <[email protected]> > <DIV></DIV>> > Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can > there be same-sex > <DIV></DIV>> > union in Islam? > <DIV></DIV>> > Reply-To: > [email protected] > <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > Assalamu'alaikum to everyone, > <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > With all the heated debate in the US and > elsewhere regarding > <DIV></DIV>> > same-sex marriage, I'm curious to find > out from members of > <DIV></DIV>> > this list as to whether there is, or if > there can be, any > <DIV></DIV>> > room for sanctification of same-sex > unions in (progressive) > <DIV></DIV>> > Islam, similar to that of the Protestant > Church in the > <DIV></DIV>> > Netherlands or of > Reform/Reconstructionist Judaism. Thank you. > <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > Powered by Gee! - Wireless Access Anywhere > <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>>_______________________________________________ > <DIV></DIV>>ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > <DIV></DIV>>[email protected] > <DIV></DIV>>http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listi > nfo/progressivemuslims > <DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr> <a > href="http://g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2746??PS=">Learn how to help > protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech Hacks & > Scams.</a> </html> > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: "kas2eileen" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be > same-sex union in Islam? > Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:25:14 -0500 > Reply-To: [email protected] > > salaam, I had been told that in the middle ages it was not > uncommon for gay > Muslim lovers to commit domestically via adoption and be > recognized. Is this > true? Eileen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:05 AM > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be > same-sex union in > Islam? > > > > From Michigan where the democratic process flairs unwieldingly and > > frighteningly! > > > > I think there's space in Islam for recognizing the bonds > that tie people > > together, regardless of the genders of those involved . . . > and as we've > > seen in the past, the number as well . . . obviously w/a caveat of > Qur'anic > > guidance and what can reasonably be expected for a > relationship to bear in > > the way of just treatment of participants as well as > general community > > welfare and spiritual enrichment. > > > > I had recently heard that there was in Imam here in the > United States > who'd > > been in the practice of doing so. (I wonder what that > Masjid is like, I'd > > love to visit since it sounds like a place were all are > welcome to Allah's > > graces.) > > > > I just finished reading the submission in "Progressive > Muslims" where > Scott > > Suraj Kugle talks about the place of sexual minorities in > Islam. It gave > me > > a refreshing insight thereof. > > > > While I was at home with my mother Sunday, we listened to > Kecia Ali, Omida > > Safi, Mr. Wolf, and Ms. Muhammad talk about change in Islam. We were > > talking about reform and she'd said that when the common expectation > > becomes gender justice in Islam, the rest would fall in > line. I seem to > > remember that being an expectation or hope from some of the other > > contributors in the book. > > > > I guess we have to ask our selves if we think it's a benefit to the > > spiritual welfare of the community and the parties involved > to recognize > > same-sex relationships. Now, obviously as a civil law > question I support > > ALL who wish to cement a commitment of mutual care in this civil > > institution simply as a matter of equality of legal application and > general > > social cohesion. Whereas, in a religious context, it's not > so simple. > > > > I'd say if we agree that it's of benefit in our respective religious > > communities (considering that this is a new > phenomenon/question w/which > > society is grappling in such a difficult and unique way), > it seems the > next > > step is to look to the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sharia, and > other guides (heavy > > emphasis on the Qur'an itself if you ask me) in crossing > this bridge that > > heretofore hasn't been trodden so much . . . though I'd > recently seen a > > movie where in a part of North Africa, there had been a community of > miners > > circa early 20th century who were in the practice of > marrying one another > > and it seemed pretty sincere and there may have been an element of > > religious sanctity employed. > > > > Certainly Feisal, Reformed Judaism and the Dutch Protestant > Churches are > > also useful guides as is the history of same-sex unions in > Catholicism and > > even cultures of the Asia and Africa in the past. > > > > But this is premised on the assumption that we agree that same-sex > marriage > > has some benefit to the Islamic community and the > individuals involved. > > > > I assume we won't sadly but I hope at least that in some of our > communities > > we will begin to think more about what it means to restrict > whole groups > of > > people from certain aspects of Islam. > > > > May Allah guide us in this and ALL questions that perplex us, > > Mudhillun > > > > > > > > > > --On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 5:17 PM +0800 Feisal Abdul Rahman > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Assalamu'alaikum to everyone, > > > > > > With all the heated debate in the US and elsewhere > regarding same-sex > > > marriage, I'm curious to find out from members of this list as to > whether > > > there is, or if there can be, any room for sanctification > of same-sex > > > unions in (progressive) Islam, similar to that of the > Protestant Church > > > in the Netherlands or of Reform/Reconstructionist > Judaism. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Powered by Gee! - Wireless Access Anywhere > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 23:16:02 -0500 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be > same-sex union in > Islam? > Reply-To: [email protected] > > Eileen, > > Can you say more about this? > > -Mudhillun > > --On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 10:25 PM -0500 kas2eileen > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > salaam, I had been told that in the middle ages it was not > uncommon for > > gay Muslim lovers to commit domestically via adoption and > be recognized. > > Is this true? Eileen > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:05 AM > > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be > same-sex union in > > Islam? > > > > > > > From Michigan where the democratic process flairs unwieldingly and > > > frighteningly! > > > > > > I think there's space in Islam for recognizing the bonds > that tie people > > > together, regardless of the genders of those involved . . > . and as we've > > > seen in the past, the number as well . . . obviously w/a caveat of > > Qur'anic > > > guidance and what can reasonably be expected for a > relationship to bear > > > in the way of just treatment of participants as well as general > > > community welfare and spiritual enrichment. > > > > > > I had recently heard that there was in Imam here in the > United States > > who'd > > > been in the practice of doing so. (I wonder what that > Masjid is like, > > > I'd love to visit since it sounds like a place were all > are welcome to > > > Allah's graces.) > > > > > > I just finished reading the submission in "Progressive > Muslims" where > > Scott > > > Suraj Kugle talks about the place of sexual minorities in > Islam. It gave > > me > > > a refreshing insight thereof. > > > > > > While I was at home with my mother Sunday, we listened to > Kecia Ali, > > > Omida Safi, Mr. Wolf, and Ms. Muhammad talk about change > in Islam. We > > > were talking about reform and she'd said that when the common > > > expectation becomes gender justice in Islam, the rest > would fall in > > > line. I seem to remember that being an expectation or > hope from some of > > > the other contributors in the book. > > > > > > I guess we have to ask our selves if we think it's a > benefit to the > > > spiritual welfare of the community and the parties > involved to recognize > > > same-sex relationships. Now, obviously as a civil law > question I support > > > ALL who wish to cement a commitment of mutual care in this civil > > > institution simply as a matter of equality of legal > application and > > general > > > social cohesion. Whereas, in a religious context, it's > not so simple. > > > > > > I'd say if we agree that it's of benefit in our > respective religious > > > communities (considering that this is a new > phenomenon/question w/which > > > society is grappling in such a difficult and unique way), > it seems the > > next > > > step is to look to the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sharia, and > other guides > > > (heavy emphasis on the Qur'an itself if you ask me) in > crossing this > > > bridge that heretofore hasn't been trodden so much . . . > though I'd > > > recently seen a movie where in a part of North Africa, > there had been a > > > community of > > miners > > > circa early 20th century who were in the practice of marrying one > > > another and it seemed pretty sincere and there may have > been an element > > > of religious sanctity employed. > > > > > > Certainly Feisal, Reformed Judaism and the Dutch > Protestant Churches are > > > also useful guides as is the history of same-sex unions > in Catholicism > > > and even cultures of the Asia and Africa in the past. > > > > > > But this is premised on the assumption that we agree that same-sex > > marriage > > > has some benefit to the Islamic community and the > individuals involved. > > > > > > I assume we won't sadly but I hope at least that in some of our > > communities > > > we will begin to think more about what it means to > restrict whole groups > > of > > > people from certain aspects of Islam. > > > > > > May Allah guide us in this and ALL questions that perplex us, > > > Mudhillun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 5:17 PM +0800 Feisal Abdul Rahman > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Assalamu'alaikum to everyone, > > > > > > > > With all the heated debate in the US and elsewhere > regarding same-sex > > > > marriage, I'm curious to find out from members of this > list as to > > whether > > > > there is, or if there can be, any room for > sanctification of same-sex > > > > unions in (progressive) Islam, similar to that of the Protestant > > > > Church in the Netherlands or of > Reform/Reconstructionist Judaism. > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Powered by Gee! - Wireless Access Anywhere > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims > > > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: "Afdhere Jama" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be > same-sex union in Islam? > Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 22:24:42 -0800 > Reply-To: [email protected] > > <html><div style='background-color:'><P><BR><BR></P> > <P><BR>salam,</P> > <P>there are historical references to a caliph (al-amin > of the 9th century) and his openly boyfriend (kawthar.) > and for some reason, there are many other homosexual couples > who were quite accepted. some of these couples, obviously, > had children. i'm still trying to find whether if > some were more accepted because they had children or what. </P> > <P>afdhere<BR><BR></P> > <DIV><STRONG>Afdhere Jama </STRONG><BR><EM>Editorial Director > </EM><BR><STRONG>HURIYAH </STRONG>Publications <BR>S A N F R > A N C I S C O <BR><A > href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected] > </A><BR><A > href="http://www.huriyahmag.com">http://www.huriyahmag.com</A></DIV> > <DIV> </DIV>>From: "kas2eileen" > <[email protected]>>Reply-To: > [email protected] >To: > <[email protected]>>Subject: Re: > [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex union in > Islam? >Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:25:14 -0500 > > >salaam, I had been told that in the middle ages it was > not uncommon for gay >Muslim lovers to commit domestically > via adoption and be recognized. Is this >true? Eileen > >----- Original Message ----- >From: > <[email protected]>>To: > <[email protected]>>Sent: > Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:05 AM >Subject: Re: > [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex union in > >Islam? > > > > From Michigan where the > democratic process flairs unwieldingly and > > > frighteningly! > > > > I think there's space in > Islam for recognizing the bonds that tie people > > > together, regardless of the genders of those involved . . . > and as we've > > seen in the past, the number as well . > . . obviously w/a caveat of >Qur'anic > > guidance > and what can reasonably be expected for a relationship to > bear in > > the way of just treatment of participants > as well as general community > > welfare and spiritual > enrichment. > > > > I had recently heard that > there was in Imam here in the United States >who'd > > > been in the practice of doing so. (I wonder what that > Masjid is like, I'd > > love to visit since it sounds > like a place were all are welcome to Allah's > > > graces.) > > > > I just finished reading the > submission in "Progressive Muslims" where >Scott > > > Suraj Kugle talks about the place of sexual minorities in > Islam. It gave >me > > a refreshing insight thereof. > > > > > While I was at home with my mother > Sunday, we listened to Kecia Ali, Omida > > Safi, Mr. > Wolf, and Ms. Muhammad talk about change in Islam. We were > > > talking about reform and! > she'd s > aid that when the common expectation > > becomes gender > justice in Islam, the rest would fall in line. I seem to > > > remember that being an expectation or hope from some of > the other > > contributors in the book. > > > > > I guess we have to ask our selves if we think it's a > benefit to the > > spiritual welfare of the community > and the parties involved to recognize > > same-sex > relationships. Now, obviously as a civil law question I > support > > ALL who wish to cement a commitment of > mutual care in this civil > > institution simply as a > matter of equality of legal application and >general > > > social cohesion. Whereas, in a religious context, it's > not so simple. > > > > I'd say if we agree that > it's of benefit in our respective religious > > > communities (considering that this is a new > phenomenon/question w/which > > society is grappling in > such a difficult and unique way), it seems the >next > > > step is to look to the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sharia, and > other guides (heavy > > emphasis on the Qur'an itself > if you ask me) in crossing this bridge that > > > heretofore hasn't been trodden so much . . . though I'd > recently seen a > > movie where in a part of North > Africa, there had been a community of >miners > > > circa early 20th century who were in the practice of marrying > one another > > and it seemed pretty sincere and there > may have been an element of > > religious sanctity > employed. > > > > Certainly Feisal, Reformed > Judaism and the Dutch Protestant Churches are > > also > useful guides as is the history of same-sex unions in > Catholicism and > > even cultures of the Asia and > Africa in the past. > > > > But this is premised > on the assumption that we agree that same-sex >marriage > > > has some benefit to the Islamic community and the > individuals involved. > > > > I assume we won't > sadly but I hope at least that in some of our >! > ;communi > ties > > we will begin to think more about what it > means to restrict whole groups >of > > people from > certain aspects of Islam. > > > > May Allah guide > us in this and ALL questions that perplex us, > > > Mudhillun > > > > > > > > > > > --On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 5:17 PM +0800 Feisal Abdul > Rahman > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > > Assalamu'alaikum to everyone, > > > > > > > With all the heated debate in the US > and elsewhere regarding same-sex > > > marriage, I'm > curious to find out from members of this list as to > >whether > > > there is, or if there can be, any > room for sanctification of same-sex > > > unions in > (progressive) Islam, similar to that of the Protestant Church > > > > in the Netherlands or of > Reform/Reconstructionist Judaism. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Powered by Gee! > - Wireless Access Anywhere > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressive > muslims > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressive > muslims > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progres > sivemuslims </div><br clear=all><hr> <a > href="http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUS/2728??PS=">FREE pop-up > blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now!</a> </html> > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 01:34:54 -0500 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be > same-sex union in > Islam? > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > Salaams all, > > The film I was talking about was "The Path of Love" (Tarik El > Hob) directed = > > by Remi Lange and in it, there's mention of the Siwa Oasis in > Egypt. I wish = > > I could find more biblio data, I found it's documented in the 1990=20 > Encyclopedia of Homosexuality, edited by Wayne Dynes. (New > York: Garland,=20 > v. 2, pp. 940-941, 1198). > > A few years ago I read "Islamic Homosexualities" (New York > University Press = > > 1997) edited by Will Roscoe and Stephen O. Murray as well as > "Sexuality and = > > Eroticism Among Males in Moslem Societies" (Harrington Park > Press, 1991)=20 > edited by Arno Schmitt and Jehoeda Sofer. They also document > same-sex=20 > relationships some with official and/or sacred recognition > throughout=20 > Islamic cultures/history. > > "Seek ye knowledge from the cradle to the grave" > Mudhillun > > --On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 10:24 PM -0800 Afdhere Jama=20 > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > salam, > > > > there are historical references to a caliph (al-amin of the > 9th century) > > and his openly boyfriend (kawthar.) and for some reason, > there are many > > other homosexual couples who were quite accepted. some of > these couples, > > obviously, had children. i'm still trying to find whether > if some were > > more accepted because they had children or what. > > > > afdhere > > > > > > Afdhere Jama > > Editorial Director > > HURIYAH Publications > > S A N F R A N C I S C O > > [email protected] > > http://www.huriyahmag.com > > >From: "kas2eileen" >Reply-To: > [email protected] > > >To: >Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex > > union in Islam? >Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:25:14 -0500 > > >salaam, I had > > been told that in the middle ages it was not uncommon for > gay >Muslim > > lovers to commit domestically via adoption and be > recognized. Is this > > >true? Eileen >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, > > March 03, 2004 9:05 AM >Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can > > there be same-sex union in >Islam? > > > > From Michigan where the > > democratic process flairs unwieldingly and > > > frighteningly! > > > > I > > think there's space in Islam for recognizing the bonds that > tie people > > > > together, regardless of the genders of those invo! lved . > . . and as > > we've > > seen in the past, the number as well . . . > obviously w/a caveat > > of >Qur'anic > > guidance and what can reasonably be expected for a > > relationship to bear in > > the way of just treatment of > participants as > > well as general community > > welfare and spiritual > enrichment. > > > > I > > had recently heard that there was in Imam here in the United States > > >who'd > > been in the practice of doing so. (I wonder what > that Masjid > > is like, I'd > > love to visit since it sounds like a place > were all are > > welcome to Allah's > > graces.) > > > > I just finished reading the > > submission in "Progressive Muslims" where >Scott > > Suraj > Kugle talks > > about the place of sexual minorities in Islam. It gave >me > > a > > refreshing insight thereof. > > > > While I was at home > with my mother > > Sunday, we listened to Kecia Ali, Omida > > Safi, Mr. Wolf, and Ms. > > Muhammad talk abo! ut change in Islam. We were > > talking > about reform > > and! she'd s aid that when the common expectation > > becomes gender > > justice in Islam, the rest would fall in line. I seem to > > > remember > > that being an expectation or hope from some of the other > > > contributors > > in the book. > > > > I guess we have to ask our selves if > we think it's a > > benefit to the > > spiritual welfare of the community and > the parties > > involved to recognize > > same-sex relationships. Now, > obviously as a > > civil law question I support > > ALL who wish to cement a > commitment of > > mutual care in this civil > > institution simply as a > matter of equality > > of legal application and >general > > social cohesion. Whereas, in a > > religious context, it's not so simple. > > > > I'd say if > we agree that > > it's of benefit in our respective religious > > communities > (considering > > that this is a new phenomenon/question w/which > > society > is grappling > > in such a difficult and unique way), it seems the >nex! t > > > step is to > > look to the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sharia, and other guides (heavy > > > > emphasis on the Qur'an itself if you ask me) in crossing > this bridge that > > > > heretofore hasn't been trodden so much . . . though I'd > recently seen > > a > > movie where in a part of North Africa, there had been > a community > > of >miners > > circa early 20th century who were in the practice of > > marrying one another > > and it seemed pretty sincere and > there may have > > been an element of > > religious sanctity employed. > > > > > Certainly > > Feisal, Reformed Judaism and the Dutch Protestant Churches > are > > also > > useful guides as is the history of same-sex unions in > Catholicism and > > > > even cultures of the Asia and Africa in the past. > > > > > But this is > > premised on the assumption that we agree that same-sex > >marriage > > has > > some benefit to the Islamic community and the individuals > involved. > > > > > > I ass! ume we won't sadly but I hope at least that in > some of our >! > > ;communi ties > > we will begin to think more about what it means to > > restrict whole groups >of > > people from certain aspects > of Islam. > > > > > > May Allah guide us in this and ALL questions that perplex us, > > > > Mudhillun > > > > > > > > > > --On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 5:17 PM > > +0800 Feisal Abdul Rahman > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Assalamu'alaikum to > > everyone, > > > > > > With all the heated debate in the US > and elsewhere > > regarding same-sex > > > marriage, I'm curious to find out > from members > > of this list as to >whether > > > there is, or if there can > be, any room > > for sanctification of same-sex > > > unions in (progressive) Islam, > > similar to that of the Protestant Church > > > in the > Netherlands or of > > Reform/Reconstructionist Judaism. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Powered b! y Gee! - Wireless Access Anywhere > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ProgressiveMuslims > > mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressive muslims > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims > > > > >_______________________________________________ >ProgressiveMuslims > mailing list >[email protected] > >http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims > > __________________________________________________ > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar =3F get it now! > _______________________________________________ ProgressiveMuslims > mailing list [email protected] > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims --__--__-- _______________________________________________ ProgressiveMuslims mailing list [email protected] http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims End of ProgressiveMuslims Digest