Re: Can there be same-sex union in Islam?

Salaams All,

I think that Inas has a point, that before we can really grapple 
w/same-gender marriage in Islam, we have to figure out how to reconcile 
queer/queer-friendly Muslims with those who aren't, given what we now know 
and are learning biologically about sexuality.

I don't think though that it's a matter of "forc[ing] a  public declaratory 
position on the matter" be it "religious[ly] . . . acknowledg[ing] 
homosexuality as anything less then an abomination and sin" or "evolv[ing] 
a healthy understanding and acceptance of homosexuality as a BIOLOGICAL 
reality." These things are already happening not because people are nailing 
99 theses at the doors of Al-Azhar University or other 'sieges' of Islamic 
custom, thought, or power thereof. Rather, new interpretations and 
positions are being made/taken because people are making new scientific 
discoveries and going 'ad fontis' to the sources, themselves, when it comes 
to Islam. Those who would resist the new information that Allah is 
revealing via the natural sciences or the humanities, social sciences, or 
even traditional approaches to interpretation and lawmaking are free to 
reject . . . but I digress.

As it stands, people are turned away from the faith by others who simply 
want to encourage the good and discourage the bad. In my own experience, 
it's very disheartening that people would travel so far down that road to 
the point that we would (respectively) reject our faith or dismiss others 
because we believe that homo-/bisexuality is such that it merits exclusion 
altogether from the folds of Islam. (Indeed some people still continence 
and practice corporal/capital punishment upon queer Muslims. They actually 
advocate and manifest killing us!) In short, whenever we reject our 
cherished faith or other Muslims, we need to ask ourselves what's going 
wrong on all sides.

And THAT question needs to be answered FAR FAR in advance of whether or not 
there is a place for gay marriage in an Islamic context! (Again, the caveat 
that in my pluralistic corner of the world, marriage in the eyes of the law 
is demonstrably speaking a civil institution in which case ALL coupled 
spouses regardless of their gender composition must not be discriminated 
against and therefore should, I believe, be afforded the same rights, 
responsibilities, and duties of mutual care and commitment as well as 
maintenance and support simply as a matter of fairness and securing 
families).

One caution I would make, Inas, in you line of reasoning is that if 
homosexuality = choice therefore it is wrong, whereas, if it not a choice 
then we shouldn't hold it against people(i.e. biological, which more and 
more documentation and observation in the natural kingdom as well as in 
societies throughout time/space suggests strongly if not proves in the case 
of homosexuality) sees it's logical end in people arguing that ANYTHING can 
be challenged or sanctioned based simply on whether it's a choice or not . 
. . there must be more to it than that.

My fear, as a Muslim in the community where I live and trying to practice 
my religion, is that people might argue that I 'choose' to interrupt work 
on Friday (new for me) so there should be no reasonable accommodation. Or 
when I wore a tarboosh when I was younger, people argued that I 'chose' to 
violate laws/customs that applied to head coverings in buildings and 
certain people's presence (believe me they did over and over).

A better example (in a religious rather than civic arena) could be that 
some people will follow Shi'i and others will follow Sunnah traditions of 
Islam. When I was younger, I thought we were just Muslims . . . then I 
realized the distinction and thought we were Sunnah, now I realize that my 
father was an eclectic man and what we ARE is hard to characterize though 
it is a choice he made in interpreting the religion. Should I/he then be 
excluded from Jum'ah, communal fast-breaking to end Ramadhan, or even 
calling my-/himself a Muslim because of that choice?

One other caution that I would make is that the distinction between 
inclinations/feelings vs. actions is a rather dubious one. Consider ANY 
feeling/inclination that is repressed rather than addressed . . . be it 
'good' (the feeling that you should help the person before you who is 
obviously in need) or 'bad' (the feeling that you want to strike another 
person),  it seems clear to me that ignoring these feelings are spiritually 
harmful because they don't go away just because we try to ignore them.

Furthermore, to think of aspects so integral to who we are (i.e. sexuality 
or even spirituality) as concepts that can be split into 
feelings/inclinations vs. actions belays the reality of WHO we are 
depending on WHAT we do: A dancer dances, a carpenter builds with wood, a 
heterosexual man seeks relationships with women, the list goes on and on 
but on the flip side, I'd have a hard time believing a person who says they 
are Catholic if they feel so inclined but don't act upon those feelings, 
same for a murderer (though I'd be suspicious in both cases . . . LOL).

This isn't to say that one either IS or one ISN'T, it's to illustrate the 
performative nature of identity (Wish I could credit the source the 
'identity as performance' idea, help me out if you). Indeed it would be 
quite a burden to ask someone to split how they feel inclined with how they 
act as far as relations with others (obviously within reason as far as not 
harming others), my young life as far as wearing a tarboosh is a prime 
example.

That brings me to another point which is that the 'inclination/feeling vs. 
action' perspective (in dealing w/responsibility and indeed culpability) 
seems more like the generally Western concept of the mind vs. the body or 
the specifically Christian concept of salvation by faith alone:

 "Acts 16:31 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and 
thy house."

"John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, 
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting 
life."

Out of context? Yes but that about sums up Christian faith at it's core 
(the rest, including Agape, all follow that idea). It's a perfect example 
of the dualistic perspective because it splits the mind and body, the 
realms of the physical and the spiritual. This perspective has it's limits 
clearly

Now, I may be misinterpreting Islam but I always thought that intentions 
were an important part of the 'Reckoning' equations as were deeds as well 
as certain beliefs arguably (i.e. assigning partners to Allah). that more 
wholistic approach, in my humble opinion, better serves in settling 
accounts without running into the limits of distinctions.

But to get back to the central theme and to wrap up I'd like to bring in an 
experience I had this evening that ties Christianity (my last subject) and 
reconciling queer/queer-friendly Muslims and communities thereof and the 
converse. Tonight I saw 'The Passion of the Christ' (that's a discussion in 
and of it's self, anyone care to weigh in?) and one aspect in the movie 
(and of Christianity no doubt) was the theme of love and acceptance - Jesus 
loves the whore, he loves and forgives those who betray him, he loves his 
captors and on the cross, he loves the thief. It's pretty radical but when 
I think about all the 'untouchables' (outcasts) or 'undesirables' (enemies) 
in our moment in history (i.e. former prisoners, queer people, those living 
with terminal illnesses, the poor, etc.), this example really challenges me 
to figure out a way to see beyond peoples predicaments, their faults, our 
differences, their ignorance, and just try and love them as I hope that 
they and Allah will love and accept me beyond my faults and ignorance.  I 
have to be it if I want to see it! So for me the challenge is to influence 
community such that ALL are welcome in spiritual and civil life!

Signing off!
Mudhillun

--On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 6:39 PM -0600 inas younis 
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
>
> Salams to all,
>
> Although,  there is no official authority in Islam, or at least not any
> that most westernized muslims subscribe to.  I think that reconciliation
> of this issue will have to take place on  personal and not official
> level.  I am not talking about the issue of "marriage", but rather
> homosexuality in general.
>
>   Before we can even entertain the sanctification of same sex union we
> have to evolve a healthy understanding and acceptance of homosexuality as
> a BIOLOGICAL reality.  You will not find one conventionally minded
> religous authority to even endorse such a dialogue, mainly because as of
> this moment,  there is no  religious interpretation whatsoever that even
> acknowledges homosexuality as anything less then an abomination and sin.
> There is in fact a quranic precedence for that.
>
> I do not personally endorse this point of view.  But as I said,  for now
> it will have to become reconciled at individual level first.  It would be
> unfair and unwise to force a  public declaratory position on the matter.
> If this issue is forced prematurely,  the large majority of  muslims will
> stand firmly with the postitoni -- that homosexuality is a CHOICE.
> Evidence to the contrary has not even had  a proper representational
> voice.
>
> Furthermore,  I think a distinction has to be made between the
> inclination and the act.  People are biologically inclined to engage in
> all kinds of socially unacceptable behaivor ( promiscuity, violence,
> shyness) , does the inclination justify the act.  Is the act divorced
> from the feeling.. IN other words,  while feelings and inclincations are
> NOT A SIN, are actions which refelect those biological inclination,  then
> by default , also not a sin.  I DONT KNOW??
>
> These, more grappling questions,  need to precede any public
> conversations, at least in the muslim communtiy about same sex marriage.
>
> As an american citiczen though, and on a more clinical note,  I think
> that couples,  same sex or otherwise, should have the same legal rights
> as married couples, provided that they meet certain criterion.
>
> But my big question is why are advocated of same sex unions so hung up on
> the word MARRIAGE..
>
>  A word which is laden with religious connotations.  How about using our
> creative energies to come up with a term that would be less threatening.
> It is not fair to ask religiously minded people of any religious
> persuasion to broaden the definition of something they hold sacred and
> who rely on clearly defined and confined meanings of marriage as a union
> of  male/female relationships.  Let them have the perk that comes with
> concrete definition and boundries that the word marriage affords them.
> Lets not get hung up on semantics.
>
> The point of organized religion afterall, is for it to be organized.
> Organized requires a strict allegiance to the inflexibility of certain
> terms.  Like the word God, Allah, You would not want someone to advocate
> the broadening of that term to include spiritually minded people or
> animals or objects.  We need to maintiain the clarity of meainging in our
> language.  some flexibility is okay as it pertains to words like FREEDOM
> FIGHTER.  But words that encroach upon peoples religious identity should
> be preserved to ensure that where everything else becomes more and more
> relative, OUR LANGUAGE DOES NOT.  Language is the vehicle for human
> communication and its what seperates us from the common animal.  The
> integrity of language should be religiously preserved.
>
>
>
>
> > From: "Kate Ahmad"
> > Reply-To: [email protected]
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex union in
> > Islam?  Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 09:25:21 +1100
> >
> > Asalaamu alaikum,
> > While you are right that 'progressive islam' is not a recipe for
> > approving forbidden acts; there is some recent argument that
> > homosexuality may not be condemned in itself within the Quran.  If
> > homosexuality is not haraam, then perhaps it is better for those who
> > practice it to be married, than to not be able to be recognised as a
> > monogamous partnership.
> > That said though, I do not feel qualified to speak further on the
> > issue - it is very difficult; and I have not studied it enough.
> > It may or may not be haraam, but I believe it is definitely open to
> > interpretation and discussion.
> > Wa'salaam
> > aisha
> >
> >
> >> From: Mohammad Islam
> >> Reply-To: [email protected]
> >> To: "Feisal Abdul Rahman"
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex
> >> union in Islam?
> >> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:42:55 -0500
> >>
> >> Asslam-o-Alikoom:
> >>
> >> “Progressive Islam” is not a recipe for approving forbidden acts
> >> where Allah and His Prophet (peace be upon him) have left no
> >> room for further interpretation.  Indeed, there’re many areas in
> >> Islam, which have been interpreted in the light of current
> >> events; however, same sex marriage is not the one.
> >>
> >> Allah knows it all.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---- On Wed, 03 Mar 2004, Feisal Abdul Rahman
> >> ([email protected]) wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Assalamu'alaikum to everyone,
> >> >
> >> > With all the heated debate in the US and elsewhere regarding
> >> same-sex marriage, I'm curious to find
> >> > out from members of this list as to whether there is, or if
> >> there can be, any room for sanctification
> >> > of same-sex unions in (progressive) Islam, similar to that of
> >> the Protestant Church in the
> >> > Netherlands or of Reform/Reconstructionist Judaism.  Thank
> >> you.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Powered by Gee! - Wireless Access Anywhere
> >> >
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> >>
> >>
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