Re: Can there be same-sex union in Islam?

Salaams Eileen and sisters,

That must have been John Boswell -- I also have the book, but haven't 
read it yet.  Unfortunately the scholarship (at least with regard to 
Christianity) has been questioned by a large number of scholars, and not 
because of anti-gay bias on their part.

On another subject (heterosexual rather than same-sex marriage), a week 
or so ago I wrote talking about the matchmaking my friends were trying 
to do for me -- so I should update you on what happened.  I've backed 
out of the whole thing.  I talked to Yusuf at length on the phone a 
couple of times, or maybe I should say he talked to me.  He lectured at 
great length, entirely in generalities!  After literally hours of 
listening, I still had no idea what he was like, other than verbose.  So 
no Yusuf for me.

My friends also came up with a second man, who also spoke in 
generalities, again giving no indication of his likes, dislikes, 
expectations, etc.  Is this an Arabic cultural trait?

And I think no matchmaking of that kind for me anyway.  I got the 
impression from both men that if we did like each other I would be 
expected to decide on marriage far too soon for my liking.

Joyce


kas2eileen wrote on 3/4/2004, 7:40 AM:

 > salaam, that is what I was hoping someone else would know about. It
 > was told
 > to me by a gay man, now deceased who researched same sex unions in all
 > religions. I have the book Same Sex Unions but could not find a detailed
 > reference.Eileen
 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: <[email protected]>
 > To: <[email protected]>
 > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 11:16 PM
 > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex union in
 > Islam?
 >
 >
 > > Eileen,
 > >
 > > Can you say more about this?
 > >
 > > -Mudhillun
 > >
 > > --On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 10:25 PM -0500 kas2eileen
 > > <[email protected]> wrote:
 > >
 > > > salaam, I had been told that in the middle ages it was not
 > uncommon for
 > > > gay Muslim lovers to commit domestically via adoption and be
 > recognized.
 > > > Is this true? Eileen
 > > > ----- Original Message -----
 > > > From: <[email protected]>
 > > > To: <[email protected]>
 > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:05 AM
 > > > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex
 > union in
 > > > Islam?
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > > From Michigan where the democratic process flairs unwieldingly and
 > > > > frighteningly!
 > > > >
 > > > > I think there's space in Islam for recognizing the bonds that tie
 > people
 > > > > together, regardless of the genders of those involved . . . and as
 > we've
 > > > > seen in the past, the number as well . . . obviously w/a caveat of
 > > > Qur'anic
 > > > > guidance and what can reasonably be expected for a relationship to
 > bear
 > > > > in the way of just treatment of participants as well as general
 > > > > community welfare and spiritual enrichment.
 > > > >
 > > > > I had recently heard that there was in Imam here in the United
 > States
 > > > who'd
 > > > > been in the practice of doing so. (I wonder what that Masjid is
 > like,
 > > > > I'd love to visit since it sounds like a place were all are
 > welcome to
 > > > > Allah's graces.)
 > > > >
 > > > > I just finished reading the submission in "Progressive Muslims"
 > where
 > > > Scott
 > > > > Suraj Kugle talks about the place of sexual minorities in Islam. It
 > gave
 > > > me
 > > > > a refreshing insight thereof.
 > > > >
 > > > > While I was at home with my mother Sunday, we listened to Kecia
 > Ali,
 > > > > Omida Safi, Mr. Wolf, and Ms. Muhammad talk about change in
 > Islam. We
 > > > > were talking about reform and she'd said that when the common
 > > > > expectation becomes gender justice in Islam, the rest would fall in
 > > > > line. I seem to remember that being an expectation or hope from
 > some
 > of
 > > > > the other contributors in the book.
 > > > >
 > > > > I guess we have to ask our selves if we think it's a benefit to the
 > > > > spiritual welfare of the community and the parties involved to
 > recognize
 > > > > same-sex relationships. Now, obviously as a civil law question I
 > support
 > > > > ALL who wish to cement a commitment of mutual care in this civil
 > > > > institution simply as a matter of equality of legal application and
 > > > general
 > > > > social cohesion. Whereas, in a religious context, it's not so
 > simple.
 > > > >
 > > > > I'd say if we agree that it's of benefit in our respective
 > religious
 > > > > communities (considering that this is a new phenomenon/question
 > w/which
 > > > > society is grappling in such a difficult and unique way), it
 > seems the
 > > > next
 > > > > step is to look to the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sharia, and other guides
 > > > > (heavy emphasis on the Qur'an itself if you ask me) in crossing
 > this
 > > > > bridge that heretofore hasn't been trodden so much . . . though I'd
 > > > > recently seen a movie where in a part of North Africa, there had
 > been
 > a
 > > > > community of
 > > > miners
 > > > > circa early 20th century who were in the practice of marrying one
 > > > > another and it seemed pretty sincere and there may have been an
 > element
 > > > > of religious sanctity employed.
 > > > >
 > > > > Certainly Feisal, Reformed Judaism and the Dutch Protestant
 > Churches
 > are
 > > > > also useful guides as is the history of same-sex unions in
 > Catholicism
 > > > > and even cultures of the Asia and Africa in the past.
 > > > >
 > > > > But this is premised on the assumption that we agree that same-sex
 > > > marriage
 > > > > has some benefit to the Islamic community and the individuals
 > involved.
 > > > >
 > > > > I assume we won't sadly but I hope at least that in some of our
 > > > communities
 > > > > we will begin to think more about what it means to restrict whole
 > groups
 > > > of
 > > > > people from certain aspects of Islam.
 > > > >
 > > > > May Allah guide us in this and ALL questions that perplex us,
 > > > > Mudhillun
 > > > >
 > > > >
 > > > >
 > > > >
 > > > > --On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 5:17 PM +0800 Feisal Abdul Rahman
 > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
 > > > >
 > > > > >
 > > > > > Assalamu'alaikum to everyone,
 > > > > >
 > > > > > With all the heated debate in the US and elsewhere regarding
 > same-sex
 > > > > > marriage, I'm curious to find out from members of this list as to
 > > > whether
 > > > > > there is, or if there can be, any room for sanctification of
 > same-sex
 > > > > > unions in (progressive) Islam, similar to that of the Protestant
 > > > > > Church in the Netherlands or of Reform/Reconstructionist Judaism.
 > > > > > Thank you.
 > > > > >
 > > > > >
 > > > > >
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