RE: RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #417 - 1 msg

Salaam Sofia,
They are interesting thoughts.  That certainly is a better way of looking at 
it.  Its just hard to judge from western society where the idea of my 
husband taking a slave and having sex with her is so abhorrent.  But 
everything needs to be looked at in context I guess.

Wa'salaam
aisha


>From: "Sofia Memon" <[email protected]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 
>1 #417 - 1 msg
>Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:57:26 -0500
>
>Salaams Aisha,
>
>I've always thought that this provision regarding sex with slaves had to
>be read in it's historical context and in light of the other, more
>numerous provisions that require the freeing of slaves in atonement or
>in lieu of other fard acts (such as fasting).  I interpret the
>provisions about slaves, taken in their totality, to indicate that Allah
>is pleased with the freeing of slaves.  I have a hard time wrapping my
>head around the fact that there is no clear prohibition of slavery and
>the excesses it engenders, but I guess it's possible that in the
>historical context of the Qur'an immediate freedom of all slaves may
>have actual been to the detriment of many of those who were enslaved at
>that time including
>1)the catastrophic withdrawal of subsistence of too many women and
>children
>2)physical abuse from everyone, as the (protected) property of no one
>---I'm thinking, for example of Somalia:  the dissolution of
>infrastructure and formal heirarchies has resulted in increased violence
>and abuse for everyone...
>I realize this is an easily corruptible argument for those who'd like to
>see the power status quo remain...
>Just some thoughts over lunch.  Alhamdulilah for lunch and for relative
>freedom.
>
>Sofia
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [email protected]
>[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
>Kate Ahmad
>Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 5:57 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest,
>Vol 1 #417 - 1 msg
>
>
>Asalaamu alaikum,
>I respectfully disagree with your point on polygamy.
>While Allah states that it is possible for men to take 4 wives, he then
>goes
>on to state that they must be treated equally and that it is impossible
>to
>do that.  So, if read fully, the Quran does not condone polygamy, in
>fact it
>states that it cannot be done in a lawful manner.
>So to me, polygamy is not allowed.  Allah tests us by making us think
>about
>his words.  There would be nothing to discover and strive for if
>everything
>was written in point form.  That is why there is a hadith that states
>'Any
>scholar who issues an opinion will be rewarded once if it is wrong, and
>twice if it is right.'
>
>On another point, sex with slaves is not something I can condone in my
>mind
>- can anybody justify it?
>
>Wa'salaam
>Aisha
>
>
> >From: "y2" <[email protected]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol
>
> >1
> >#417 - 1 msg
> >Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 02:10:28 -0500
> >
> >Salaams,
> >
> >Well, to start off with.  I have my suspicions as to the intentions of
> >this question, but I'll bite anyways.
> >
> >1.  A muslim is never alloed to be unfaithful.  You are NOT allowed to
> >have sex with slaves as if they're objects.
> >
> >As I was taught, the idea of 'slaves' as mentioned in the koran are
> >refered to in 2 contexts.  I of course had questions on reading the
> >English translation of slaves, and it was explained in this context. 1.
>
> >The recognition that slaves did exist at that time.  And the koran has
> >no fear addressing this problem and thus declares way to free slaves
> >
> >2.  'slaves' as those captured in battle has more to do with the
> >concept of the modern prisoner of war.  And thus, you most certainly
> >withhold from them some rights, but their children and what not must be
>
> >born free.  You can most certainly marry one of this POWs...They can
> >and should be exchanged with your own POWs.
> >
> >The possibility of multiple wives is of course something that is there.
> >Its
> >a matter of responsbility and circumstance.  Most certainly in times of
>war
> >if many men died, it would be reasonable if a man could have more than
>one
> >woman.  This has nothing to do with a faithfulness.  The man is still
> >required to be faithful to his wives, equally.
> >
> >The 'ease' of divorce is nothing to be exploited by anyone.  Those who
> >do are committing a sin.  Why would GOD make it difficult for two
> >people who cannot continue as a family to divorce?
> >
> >I would first question the basis of each of your points (1-3) before
> >jumping
> >to the next stage of conclusions.
> >
> >Yameen
> >
> > > Message: 1
> > > From: "talib ul-Haq" <[email protected]>
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 17:25:03 +0000
> > > Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] More on Sex
> > > Reply-To: [email protected]
> > >
> > > Salaams everyone
> > >
> > > The usual take on this sex is that it is sacred etc. This is a
> > > useful message to propogate at a time of HIV/AIDS.
> > >
> > > Yet, several issues make me wonder if, however useful, and however
> > > desperate I am to make the argument, this is an argument that can
> > > really withstand
> > > Qur'anic scrutiny. Let's look at the following
> > >
> > > a) the phenomenon of temporary marriage - even if no longer
> > > applicable, i.e., mansukh
> > > b) the ease of divorce
> > > c) the possibility of four wives
> > > d) the permissability of sex with any amount of slaves
> > >
> > > The prohibition on Zina is a matter completely aside. This
> > > prohibition says nothing about the sanctity of sex or the need for
> > > one partner. It may say
> > > some stuff about fidelity, or the sanctity of marriage.
> > >
> > > The dominant Islamic message has been one of 'be faithful" - the B
> > > in the ABC. Does this faithfulness have anything to with the
> > > sanctity of sex inside
> > > marriage? If yes, then why can I have as many other sexual
> > > partners as I
> > > want as long as I own them?
> > >
> > > Salaams
> > >
> > > Talib
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > >
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