Re: Sodom and Gomorrah & Iraqi PrisonerAbuse
Yasmine Anabta <[email protected]> Sun, 9 May 2004 14:47:59 -0700 (PDT)
| Newsgroups | gmane.culture.religion.muslim.progressive |
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--===============0607293828== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2103721984-1084139279=:56920" --0-2103721984-1084139279=:56920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Agreed, One thing we must all keepp in mind is these pictures of which I have seen many more each day, are war crimes. Now the tricky thing is , and it was brought up no less By Senator Leiberman ( a devout Jew) when Rumsfeld was interviewed by congress, that The Talaiban members captured in Afghanistan are subject to the rules of the Geneva convention, Al-Quada members or suspects in Guantanamo Bay ( Gitmo) are not considered POW's and do not fall under the protocols of the geneva convention. Now Leiberman asked three times about POW's in Iraq, and Rumsfeld answered each time that they WERE POWs subject to the Geneva convention,,,,,,,,,,,but ( they did not say),,,,,,,,,,,( My addition).... Bush delcared the "WAR" over , over a year ago. These people are slick and sick. This is an abomination period and we as Muslims must respond , we as human beings must act. We in America have a resposnibility to make our voices heard loud and clear, we must call for intercession by the IIC, and the Hague. How can These sub human entinties sit there and get away with this and these pundits not one of them mention the word "war crime:. And yes I agree that what these pictures depict is ther worst kind of patriarchal ,male domination even as and when they were/are perpetuated by women. I cannot write anymore on this, or I will get ill. I just ask all of you to think if this is what we see in Iraq, imagine the things we have not seen in Afghanistan and GITMO and in Israeli Prison's. May Allah help keep us strong ( shadeed) for the struglle we must cast onto the system that perpetuated this gross and inhuman violations of the very essence of human dignity . May we find ways to reach out to each other for support and to know that we will do all we can for Justice in this case and world over. ALLAH YESALMAK Rima kas2eileen <[email protected]> wrote: salaam Elsiha, this was excellent and thoughtful. We had discussed this in the past, the nature of Sodom andGomorrah as not homosexual but perverted and violent sex and thinking of the pictures and comparing it , is very convincing and a good comparison. Eileen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elisha" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 4:52 PM Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Sodom and Gomorrah & Iraqi PrisonerAbuse > With the photographs of American soldiers using their > power to subject men whom they conquered to sexual > humiliation, before our eyes we see an example of what > Sodom and Gomorrah was like. > > When any sane person irrespective of sexual > orientation views those acts they are repulsed, it was > indeed an abomination - THEN and NOW. Most religious > scholars get hung up on homosexuality in Sodom & > Gomorrah, as though it was a central them. Just > because homosexual acts were involved doesn't mean the > actors were homosexual. Any objective person must > admit that the character and the nature of what is > described in Sodom and Gomorrah doesn't accurately fit > two persons seeking marriage or even just having sex > in today's world. The public nature of what went on > in Sodom and Gomorrah does not even resemble a typical > gay relationship. Male aggression, violence, public > humiliation are central themes in the Iraqi prisoner > abuse scandal and in the ancient story of Sodom and > Gomorrah. > > I want to make a final point, to drive this issue > home. The tone of the scriptures regarding Sodom and > Gomorrah also involve the theme of uncleanliness. And > therefore homosexuality has been smeared with this > similar charge as unclean, nasty and thus an > abomination. Murder and rape do not even carry this > same association. Well, what was captured by those > photographs of American GIs abusing prisoners was > unclean, nasty and thus an abomination. > > Public molestation and rape, fit right in with > bestiality, and incest - not just because they are > unhealthy; but because they were the practice of the > people to whom the scriptures were revealed. The > Torah and the Qur'an gives law to address the specific > behaviors of the people contemporary with their > revelations. The Quran's condemnation and repeated > references to female infanticide is virtually not > applicable to the modern world. And it would be > foolish to look for a modern expression of that act to > apply the Qur'an's legal code to; it was an artifact > of the time. So it is with Sodom & Gomorrah there is > no modern equivalent of that cultural practice, > although there are some that are similar - homosexual > rape in prison, etc. The Iraqi prisoner abuse mimics > Sodom & Gomorrah but even those events are not > congruent. The practice itself, as well as the > scriptures that address them are artifacts of their > time. This is why one most be careful when looking > for analogous situations in the present to equate them > with. But in this case I think I found one - the > Iraqi prisoner abuse. Search your heart and your mind > and ask yourself which situation most resembles Sodom > and Gomorrah; a same sex couple or the photographs > we've seen regarding the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. If > all of the homosexuals on the planet were removed, the > sexual abuse of those prisoners would have occurred. > > Salaam, > > Elisha > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover > > _______________________________________________ > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > [email protected] > http://ganymede.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims _______________________________________________ ProgressiveMuslims mailing list [email protected] http://ganymede.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --0-2103721984-1084139279=:56920 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <DIV>Agreed,</DIV> <DIV> One thing we must all keepp in mind is these pictures of which I have seen many more each day, are war crimes. Now the tricky thing is , and it was brought up no less By Senator Leiberman ( a devout Jew) when Rumsfeld was interviewed by congress, that The Talaiban members captured in Afghanistan are subject to the rules of the Geneva convention, Al-Quada members or suspects in Guantanamo Bay ( Gitmo) are not considered POW's and do not fall under the protocols of the geneva convention. Now Leiberman asked three times about POW's in Iraq, and Rumsfeld answered each time that they WERE POWs subject to the Geneva convention,,,,,,,,,,,but ( they did not say),,,,,,,,,,,( My addition).... Bush delcared the "WAR" over , over a year ago.</DIV> <DIV> These people are slick and sick.</DIV> <DIV> This is an abomination period and we as Muslims must respond , we as human beings must act. We in America have a resposnibility to make our voices heard loud and clear, we must call for intercession by the IIC, and the Hague. How can These sub human entinties sit there and get away with this and these pundits not one of them mention the word "war crime:.</DIV> <DIV> And yes I agree that what these pictures depict is ther worst kind of patriarchal ,male domination even as and when they were/are perpetuated by women.</DIV> <DIV> I cannot write anymore on this, or I will get ill.</DIV> <DIV> I just ask all of you to think if this is what we see in Iraq, imagine the things we have not seen in Afghanistan and GITMO and in Israeli Prison's.</DIV> <DIV> May Allah help keep us strong ( shadeed) for the struglle we must cast onto the system that perpetuated this gross and inhuman violations of the very essence of human dignity .</DIV> <DIV> May we find ways to reach out to each other for support and to know that we will do all we can for Justice in this case and world over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ALLAH YESALMAK</DIV> <DIV>Rima<BR><BR><B><I>kas2eileen <[email protected]></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">salaam Elsiha, this was excellent and thoughtful. We had discussed this in<BR>the past, the nature of Sodom andGomorrah as not homosexual but perverted<BR>and violent sex and thinking of the pictures and comparing it , is very<BR>convincing and a good comparison. Eileen<BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Elisha" <[email protected]><BR>To: <[email protected]><BR>Cc: <[email protected]><BR>Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 4:52 PM<BR>Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Sodom and Gomorrah & Iraqi<BR>PrisonerAbuse<BR><BR><BR>> With the photographs of American soldiers using their<BR>> power to subject men whom they conquered to sexual<BR>> humiliation, before our eyes we see an example of what<BR>> Sodom and Gomorrah was like.<BR>><B R>> When any sane person irrespective of sexual<BR>> orientation views those acts they are repulsed, it was<BR>> indeed an abomination - THEN and NOW. Most religious<BR>> scholars get hung up on homosexuality in Sodom &<BR>> Gomorrah, as though it was a central them. Just<BR>> because homosexual acts were involved doesn't mean the<BR>> actors were homosexual. Any objective person must<BR>> admit that the character and the nature of what is<BR>> described in Sodom and Gomorrah doesn't accurately fit<BR>> two persons seeking marriage or even just having sex<BR>> in today's world. The public nature of what went on<BR>> in Sodom and Gomorrah does not even resemble a typical<BR>> gay relationship. Male aggression, violence, public<BR>> humiliation are central themes in the Iraqi prisoner<BR>> abuse scandal and in the ancient story of Sodom and<BR>> Gomorrah.<BR>><BR>> I want to make a final point, to drive this issue<BR>> home . The tone of the scriptures regarding Sodom and<BR>> Gomorrah also involve the theme of uncleanliness. And<BR>> therefore homosexuality has been smeared with this<BR>> similar charge as unclean, nasty and thus an<BR>> abomination. Murder and rape do not even carry this<BR>> same association. Well, what was captured by those<BR>> photographs of American GIs abusing prisoners was<BR>> unclean, nasty and thus an abomination.<BR>><BR>> Public molestation and rape, fit right in with<BR>> bestiality, and incest - not just because they are<BR>> unhealthy; but because they were the practice of the<BR>> people to whom the scriptures were revealed. The<BR>> Torah and the Qur'an gives law to address the specific<BR>> behaviors of the people contemporary with their<BR>> revelations. The Quran's condemnation and repeated<BR>> references to female infanticide is virtually not<BR>> applicable to the modern world. And it would be<BR>> foo lish to look for a modern expression of that act to<BR>> apply the Qur'an's legal code to; it was an artifact<BR>> of the time. So it is with Sodom & Gomorrah there is<BR>> no modern equivalent of that cultural practice,<BR>> although there are some that are similar - homosexual<BR>> rape in prison, etc. The Iraqi prisoner abuse mimics<BR>> Sodom & Gomorrah but even those events are not<BR>> congruent. The practice itself, as well as the<BR>> scriptures that address them are artifacts of their<BR>> time. This is why one most be careful when looking<BR>> for analogous situations in the present to equate them<BR>> with. But in this case I think I found one - the<BR>> Iraqi prisoner abuse. Search your heart and your mind<BR>> and ask yourself which situation most resembles Sodom<BR>> and Gomorrah; a same sex couple or the photographs<BR>> we've seen regarding the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. If<BR>> all of the homosexuals on the pla net were removed, the<BR>> sexual abuse of those prisoners would have occurred.<BR>><BR>> Salaam,<BR>><BR>> Elisha<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> __________________________________<BR>> Do you Yahoo!?<BR>> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs<BR>> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> ProgressiveMuslims mailing list<BR>> [email protected]<BR>> http://ganymede.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims<BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>ProgressiveMuslims mailing list<BR>[email protected]<BR>http://ganymede.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims</BLOCKQUOTE><p> <hr size=1><font face=arial size=-1>Do you Yahoo!?<br><a href="http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/hotjobs/hotjobs_mail_signature_footer_textlink/evt=23983/*http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover">Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs </a> --0-2103721984-1084139279=:56920-- --===============0607293828== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ProgressiveMuslims mailing list [email protected] http://ganymede.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims --===============0607293828==--