CryoNet #31701 - #31707
CryoNet <[email protected]>
| Newsgroups | gmane.culture.science.cryogenics |
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CryoNet - Mon 1 Jun 2009
#31702: Cryonet post - Time Travel [david pizer]
#31703: Pizer's time travel [Ettinger]
#31704: RE: Cryonet post - Time Travel [david pizer]
#31705: Pizer reverse time travel: Better than the atomic model? [Finance Department]
#31706: Fw: Cryonet post - Time Travel [John de Rivaz]
#31707: Cryonet post - Time Travel [John de Rivaz]
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Message #31702
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 18:55:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: david pizer <[email protected]>
Subject: Cryonet post - Time Travel
TIME TRAVEL (To the Past)
BY: David Pizer
(We know how to travel to the future - Have your mind (brain) frozen-vitrified now and reanimated sometime in the future. However, time travel to the past seems a little more difficult. Following is one possibility).
There are at least two reasons why people might like to travel to the past that I can think of: One is to rescue loved ones (or others), and two is to see what it was really like aC back then.aC Here is a very rough draft presentation on the idea of the project I have in mind on how to try to get into the past - at least as far as dealing with past humans goes *for the two reasons above.*
Any suggestions on this will appreciated.
1. TOOLS NEEDED: In the future we will build computers that build computers that build computers that build computers, and so on and so forth, until we end up with very powerful aC end-productaC computers. My idea of end-product computers are computers that donaC t build other computers but do some other type of work.
One of the things that I think these end-product computers will be able to do is to make a complete simulation of all things relative to human beings on the Planet Earth and every human (and human brain) alive at the time of the start of this project. (By the way, to give you an idea of the power of this computer, this end product computer may be as big as a solar system or single galaxy [or bigger] but that is not so big when considering the size of the Universe).
2. MEASUREMENTS: Once we have measured every human brain and all other things relating to the Human Race on Earth at the starting point time of the project, we then place this data in our computer, and instruct it to start to work.
3. HOW IT WORKS: Every effect has a cause. Once we know how things are at a certain time, (AKA: the effects of immediate causes), our computer can figure how things were, say, one second before that time, by figuring out what had to have caused that last effect. Then one second before that time and so on working one second at a time backwards. You take a point in time, (an effect of a cause in the immediate time before that), and then the computer figures the cause of that effect and has arrived one second back in time. That cause is the effect of a previous cause. That previous cause in an effect of an even previous cause and so on backwards in time.
If the computer knows some other things and the composition of all the human brains at any certain time, aC the starting time of the project,aC then the computer can figure how things were one second earlier because there had to be a cause for each effect. And each cause is just an effect of a previous cause. So we just keep working backwards creating a simulated human race and each mind/brain, that mirrors each of the individual minds in The Human Race going back in time. Of course the computer needs to work fast so that it can figure many seconds earlier (minutes and hours, in fact) in a fraction of a second. So, for instance, it will take the computer much less then a year to figure how things were in all the human minds, and all things relating to the Human Race all over the p
laner Earth, a year earlier. (Even if it is a little slower, it is still worth doing, as humans in the future (by the time we can build this computer) will be virtually
immortal and will have lots of time to work on projects like this.
So we can create a virtual world at every second, minute, hour, day, week, year and century going back in time by taking a snapshot, then figuring what the causes were of that situation (effect of that cause) and then going back to the immediate previous situation was, and knowing that situation by figuring what it had to be like for the specific effect that followed and work our way back to the first people in the beginning of the Human Race.
4. A MIND IS MERELY INFORMATION. In this virtual world that has been created (inside the computer working back in time with effect and cause method), are simulated people (that mirror the real people the existed back then), with the information in each simulated virtual personaC s brain that comprises their mind. At any time we can copy the information relating to any persons mind that is in the simulation and then recreate that personaC s mind/brain (and body if we want) and make a duplicate of that person and put them in our current world, therefore rescuing that person. aC Welcome back Grandpa!aC
5. LETaC S GO ON A TRIP: At any time, we can ask the computer to make a copy of the world at a certain time, and then insert ourselves (or for safety - a duplicate of ourselves), in the copy of the world at that time and we are now virtually traveling in that past time period.
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Message #31703
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 23:16:03 EDT
Subject: Pizer's time travel
Content-Language: en
Dave Pizer proposes virtual "travel" into the past, first by retrodicting
history and then creating a virtual reality reflecting that.
I have discussed some of these questions in Youniverse. I think it is
probable ( currently a minority opinion) that the universe is deterministic and
that information cannot be destroyed, hence duplication or near-duplication
of people and events may be possible in principle. However, I do not agree
that virtual reality would necessarily allow virtual people to be real in
the sense of having subjective experiences, these latter (qualia) being the
essence of life as we know it.
As just one example of the problems, a virtual "world" would necessarily
behave according to the rules of physics as understood (or imagined) by the
programmers. But for the foreseeable future our models of the world will be
incomplete and partly wrong, hence will not fully or accurately reflect
reality,
Robert Ettinger
**************We found the real aC~Hotel CaliforniaaC and the aC~SeinfeldaC
diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com.
(http://www.whereitsat.com/#/music/all-spots/355/47.796964/-66.374711/2/Youve-Found-Where-Its-At?ncid=eml
cntnew00000007)
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Message #31704
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 23:12:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: david pizer <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Cryonet post - Time Travel
My friend R. sent me some ideas on the subject of time travel (backwards) that I would like to share.
R. said:
> David-
> This is an awesome idea.
> How close to Perry's Forever For All vision
> would (could) this take us?
David's Reply:
Perry's idea, as I understand it, is that there are other universes and there are so many of them that there is bound to be another one just like ours somewhere and in that one that is just like this one, there is a person living that is just like you, (and one that is just like me and one that is just like every person in this universe), and that person that is just like you is a duplicate of you, and a duplicate of you is you, therefore you are surviving in that other universe.
I don't buy that. A duplicate may be you, but are there other universes just like ours? If so, in those other universes are they people exactly like the people in this universe? I don't see any reason to believe that even if there were an infinite number of other universes out there somewhere, that that has to be one just like this one.
My idea is that we create brains that are exactly like the brains of people that have lived in THIS universe at a point in time (best if we create a brain like theirs was just before they died so that there is the maximum amount of information available). We are doing all this in the one universe we know does exist.
Those brains we copy in the computer are structured exactly like the brains of each and every person who has ever lived at each point in time that they did exist. So when we copy them we then have duplicated the minds of the person who did exist.
We get to know the structure of these brains by figuring out what caused each effect in the universe and working backwards. We can start anywhere in time that we have all the data and work back to the beginning of the Human Race. This does not rely on there having to be another universe that may or may not exist somewhere outside this universe, and even if other universes do exist there could be an infinite amount of them and still not one just like ours.
It only relies on computers that we can build some day in the future, and that there being a cause for every effect. I think these are both truths in principle that we know are true now.
Here is how it plays out the differences between Dr. Perry's and My ideas:
1. They may both work to save loved ones.
2. They may both not work?
3. One may work and the other may not?
I like my idea because it is based on engineering work that could be done in principle, and does not require any additional unknown (for now) universes to exist that may or may not exist and does not require those universes, if they did exist, to have people exactly like each of us in them.
R also said:
> I'm uncomfortable on one point: speed of the
> simulation. Intuitively I'm thinking that the
> computer system creating the simulation must operate faster
> than time is progressing forward, otherwise we'd
> be inexorably drawn into the future, because the
> simulation would have to account for the progression of time
> forward as it's recreating the past?
David: I don't see this as a problem since time goes on all right, but the time in the computer (going backwards) is not real time that we live in, but simulated time for just working out a problem. So in 10 years from the start date of the project, the computer might have duplicated the brains of every one that existed 10 years before the project was started (or 20 years from the current date if it takes one year of computer work to recreate one year before the start of the project). I don't see that as a problem. It just means that 10 years after the start of the project you can rescue someone who died 10 years before the project started. If I am immortal in the future (as people will be) and I can bring back someone who died 20 years ago at that time, of 1,000 years ago, that's OK.
Think of yourself playing a movie backwards in current time. As real time goes on you look further back into the past. So you discover something that happened 20 years ago an hour after you started. Allt his means is that we will have to waid a certain amount of time (from the start of the project) until we can rescure people. When we reanimate them in our time, the change is going to be relative to them not to us. Can they handle this? What if you woke up 500 years in the future? Would that be a good thing or bad thing?
What if you started to work to bring Alexander the Great back now. So in a 1000 years you have worked back to create an exact duplicate of his brain. So he wakes up way in the future?
Immortal people will need long term projects to keep them from getting bored.
R said:
> How did you come up with this!
David: It just came to me as I was thinking about it. It came in a burst of thought about 2 or 3 minutes long?
Might be the way we do it someday?
Might be stupid?
We won't know for a while.
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Message #31705
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 00:30:59 -0600
Subject: Pizer reverse time travel: Better than the atomic model?
From: Finance Department <[email protected]>
--0016e64135f4c0e9a6046b43917f
I can see some logical problems with reverse time travel, and I wonder if
these have anything to do with the idea that the atom and its particles
revolving around it being a microcosm of the solar system and there being
micro-inhabitants on one of its electrons, hm...
FD
--0016e64135f4c0e9a6046b43917f
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Message #31706
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email protected]>
Subject: Fw: Cryonet post - Time Travel
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 08:22:18 +0100
David Pizer's suggestion is a simulation. It is possible now by any
individual by just imagining the situation -- your brain is the computer.
Physical time travel to the past may or may not be possible, but there are
paradoxes generated if it could be done.
However it is not needed to rescue non-cryonicists who have died. What is
needed may be impossible as well, but it is "transmitterless reception from
the past". Then you can get "program and data" to rebuild them.
"Transmitterless reception from the past" generates no paradoxes, so the
physics ought to be much simpler than time travel or indeed "receiverless
transmission **to** the past". The latter, for example, could be used to
transmit circuit diagrams to the past so that electronics engineers could
save time inventing circuits. But if no one really invents them how to they
exist? No such anomalies exist with "Transmitterless reception from the
past".
--
Sincerely, John de Rivaz: http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy, Nomad .. and
more
Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=31706
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Message #31707
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Cryonet post - Time Travel
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 08:17:14 +0100
That is a simulation. It is possible now by any individual by just imagining the situation -- your brain is the computer.
Physical time travel to the past may or may not be possible, but there are paradoxes generated if it could be done.
However it is not needed to rescue non-cryonicists who have died. What is needed may be impossible as well, but it is "transmitterless reception from the past". Then you can get "program and data" to rebuild them.
"Transmitterless reception from the past" generates no paradoxes, so the physics ought to be much simpler than time travel or indeed "receiverless transmission **to** the past". The latter, for example, could be used to transmit circuit diagrams to the past so that electronics engineers could save time inventing circuits. But if no one really invents them how to they exist? No such anomalies exist with "Transmitterless reception from the past".
--
Sincerely, John de Rivaz: http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy, Nomad .. and
more
----- Original Message -----
From: david pizer
To: Cryonet
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:55 AM
Subject: [Venturists] Cryonet post - Time Travel
TIME TRAVEL (To the Past)
BY: David Pizer
(We know how to travel to the future - Have your mind (brain) frozen-vitrified now and reanimated sometime in the future. However, time travel to the past seems a little more difficult. Following is one possibility).
===============================
There are at least two reasons why people might like to travel to the past that I can think of: One is to rescue loved ones (or others), and two is to see what it was really like aC back then.aC Here is a very rough draft presentation on the idea of the project I have in mind on how to try to get into the past - at least as far as dealing with past humans goes *for the two reasons above.*
Any suggestions on this will appreciated.
========================================
1. TOOLS NEEDED: In the future we will build computers that build computers that build computers that build computers, and so on and so forth, until we end up with very powerful aC end-productaC computers. My idea of end-product computers are computers that donaC t build other computers but do some other type of work.
One of the things that I think these end-product computers will be able to do is to make a complete simulation of all things relative to human beings on the Planet Earth and every human (and human brain) alive at the time of the start of this project. (By the way, to give you an idea of the power of this computer, this end product computer may be as big as a solar system or single galaxy [or bigger] but that is not so big when considering the size of the Universe).
2. MEASUREMENTS: Once we have measured every human brain and all other things relating to the Human Race on Earth at the starting point time of the project, we then place this data in our computer, and instruct it to start to work.
3. HOW IT WORKS: Every effect has a cause. Once we know how things are at a certain time, (AKA: the effects of immediate causes), our computer can figure how things were, say, one second before that time, by figuring out what had to have caused that last effect. Then one second before that time and so on working one second at a time backwards. You take a point in time, (an effect of a cause in the immediate time before that), and then the computer figures the cause of that effect and has arrived one second back in time. That cause is the effect of a previous cause. That previous cause in an effect of an even previous cause and so on backwards in time.
If the computer knows some other things and the composition of all the human brains at any certain time, aC the starting time of the project,aC then the computer can figure how things were one second earlier because there had to be a cause for each effect. And each cause is just an effect of a previous cause. So we just keep working backwards creating a simulated human race and each mind/brain, that mirrors each of the individual minds in The Human Race going back in time. Of course the computer needs to work fast so that it can figure many seconds earlier (minutes and hours, in fact) in a fraction of a second. So, for instance, it will take the computer much less then a year to figure how things were in all the human minds, and all things relating to the Human Race all over the planer
Earth, a year earlier. (Even if it is a little slower, it is still worth doing, as humans in the future (by the time we can build this computer) will be virtually
immortal and will have lots of time to work on projects like this.
So we can create a virtual world at every second, minute, hour, day, week, year and century going back in time by taking a snapshot, then figuring what the causes were of that situation (effect of that cause) and then going back to the immediate previous situation was, and knowing that situation by figuring what it had to be like for the specific effect that followed and work our way back to the first people in the beginning of the Human Race.
4. A MIND IS MERELY INFORMATION. In this virtual world that has been created (inside the computer working back in time with effect and cause method), are simulated people (that mirror the real people the existed back then), with the information in each simulated virtual personaC s brain that comprises their mind. At any time we can copy the information relating to any persons mind that is in the simulation and then recreate that personaC s mind/brain (and body if we want) and make a duplicate of that person and put them in our current world, therefore rescuing that person. aC Welcome back Grandpa!aC
5. LETaC S GO ON A TRIP: At any time, we can ask the computer to make a copy of the world at a certain time, and then insert ourselves (or for safety - a duplicate of ourselves), in the copy of the world at that time and we are now virtually traveling in that past time period.
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