CryoNet #32068 - #32072

CryoNet - Fri 16 Oct 2009

    #32068: Re: Melody's comments [Keith Henson]
    #32069: Re: Questions For Melody Maxim [Mike Perry]
    #32070: mp3 of LJ on Thom Hartmann's show [Mark Plus]
    #32071: Death caused not by lack of oxygen but by reactions to droppi... [rr ss]
    #32072: CryoNet Rating System and Message Content Suppression [Kitty Antonik Wakfer]

Rate This Digest: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=32068%2D32072

Administrivia

To subscribe to CryoNet, send email to:
    [email protected]
with the subject line (not message _body_):
    subscribe
To unsubscribe, use the subject line:
    unsubscribe


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message #32068
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 06:55:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Melody's comments
From: Keith Henson <[email protected]>

Tripper McCarthy's comments and questions are good.  I have a few more.

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:29:35 +0000 (UTC)
From: Melody%20Maxim <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #32065

snip

>Then, there
>was the time Alcor tried to pass off a ball peen hammer as a medical mallet.

That wasn't needed.  The problem is explaining why it is ok to use
ordinary tools when people are frozen to LN2 temperature.
Microorganisms just are not a problem at that temperature.  And any
technology up to recovering someone will not have any problem sorting
the patient out from other stuff.

snip

>pouring
>biohazardous waste down city sewer systems,

Melody, think about it.  Every time you flush the toilet biohazard
waste goes down the city sewer system.  It's the function of sewers
and treatment plants to accept such waste and make it safe.

I remember one suspension I was on, an HIV patient in SF.  We had done
a remote washout at a mortuary and the team was about to drive several
hundred miles with a large bag of HIV contaminate blood and washout
solution.  A wreck could have broken the bag and showered everyone.  I
pulled out the bag and some bleach and took it to the mortuary prep
room, dumped it into a sink and was stopped by an attendant who
wondered what the bleach was for.  When I explained, he told me that
the blood from several hundred HIV patients had gone down that very
drain into the sewer without treatment or causing problems.

snip

> Do the people reading
>Cryonet realize open heart surgery and perfusion have not been around much
>longer than cryonics? (Yet, look at the disparity in progress, between these two
>fields!)

Consider the relative numbers of cases.

The worse thing that happens is to pump air.  Not good since it can
block parts of the brain from good perfusion.  It never happened on
any of the cases I was on.

Keith

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=32068

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message #32069
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:44:12 -0700
From: Mike Perry <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Questions For Melody Maxim
References: <[email protected]>

I am glad to see Tripper's effort at constructive dialog with Melody. 
I hope to see more back-and-forth about the shortcomings of current 
cryonics procedures and how these might be remedied. The criticism 
itself also needs to be examined closely. Is it overblown, and when, 
or on the mark, or even too light in spots? (As for the latter, I for 
one think not enough attention has been given to lower-cost 
alternatives to currently-expensive cryopreservation.) In the end 
open discussion will make us stronger and also more credible to the 
public at large.

Mike Perry

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=32069

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message #32070
From: Mark Plus <[email protected]>
Subject: mp3 of LJ on Thom Hartmann's show
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:32:38 -0700

You can ignore everything after about 9 minutes:

http://www.box.net/shared/static/uncf4r3jpc.mp3

Mark Plus


 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=32070

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message #32071
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:05:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: rr ss <[email protected]>
Subject: Death caused not by lack of oxygen but by reactions to droppi...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/10/09/cheating.death.suspended.animation/index.html


Scientists hope work with poison gas can be a lifesaver
Story Highlights
Theory: Death caused not by lack of oxygen but by reactions to dropping oxygen levels
Scientist says tiny amount of toxic hydrogen sulfide can stop cell death
Biologist hopes to create drug for use in conventional medical settings
Work inspired by death of researcher's young daughter
updated 3 hours, 35 minutes ago
Next Article in Health >

 
 

SEATTLE, Washington (CNN) --

The rat sniffs the air a few times, and within a minute, his naturally twitchy movements are almost still. On a monitor that shows his rate of breathing, the lines look like a steep mountain slope, going down.

At first glance, that looks bad. We need oxygen to live. If you don't get it for several minutes -- for example, if you suffer cardiac arrest or a bad gunshot wound -- you die. But something else is going on inside this rat. He isn't dead, isn't dying. The reason why, some people think, is the future of emergency medicine.

You see, Roth thinks he's figured out the puzzle. "While it's true we need oxygen to live, it's also a toxin," he explains. Scientists are starting to understand that death isn't caused by oxygen deprivation itself, but by a chain of damaging chemical reactions that are triggered by sharply dropping oxygen levels.

The thing is, those reactions require the presence of some oxygen. Hydrogen sulfide takes the place of oxygen, preventing those reactions from taking place. No chain reaction, no cell death. The patient lives.  Watch more on how a scientist suspends animation >
'Cheating Death'

Hear about the medical miracles that are saving lives in the face of death, taken from Dr. Sanjay Gupta's new book "Cheating Death." 8 and 11 p.m. ET Saturday-Sunday on CNN.



etc

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=32071

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message #32072
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 20:28:15 -0400
From: Kitty Antonik Wakfer <[email protected]>
Subject: CryoNet Rating System and Message Content Suppression

In following up on Mike Perry's comments regarding Melody Maxim's most 
recent message, Msg #32066, please note that its contents do not show up 
in the digest and instead only the notification 

<<< POSTER'S REPUTATION TOO LOW >>>

Therefore, it seems that a number of CryoNet subscribers are using the 
rating system to squelch publication of Melody Maxim's messages in the 
daily digest.

As an example, the following is a message from Melody to CryoNet in mid 
September that was "filtered from the daily CryoNet digest because the 
poster's reputation was too low." Additionally, this message has itself 
been been given a total "flamebait" rating of 6.00 - scored as 
"flamebait" by at least 7 individuals, depending on exactly how Kevin's 
algorithm for "reputation" works. (There is no explanation given on 
Kevin's page http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/reputation.cgi?help=y of how 
multiples of different ratings are combined to arrive at the poster 
reputation, nor of how a "flamebait" score of 6.0 can even be achieved 
since 6.0 is not a multiple of 0.8.)

X-Message-Number: 31992
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:19:07 +0000 (UTC)
From: Melody%20Maxim <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: Owada - CAS


The cryo-orgs should thoroughly investigate this technology, and it would be 
encouraging if they would pay for an outside evaluation. I don't believe many, 
(if any), of the existing cryonics personnel have the knowledge and/or 
experience required, to produce a proper, non-biased evaluation, and the 
majority of people working in cryonics a vested interest in continuing on the 
course they are on, (regardless of how very little progress has been made).

Melody Maxim
---------------EOM-------------------------

Now, it is very likely that many people who subscribe to CryoNet do not 
like what Melody wrote above, but "flamebait"??! (Definition per 
wikipedia: "[A] message posted to a public Internet  discussion 
group, such as a forum, newsgroup or mailing list , with the intent of 
provoking an angry response (a "flame") or argument over a topic the troll often 
has no real interest in." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamebait 
Similar definition at urbandictionary - 
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=flamebait ) The other 
scores were given for "excellent", "good" and "normal" - together these 
last 3 all total 6.00 also; a "normal" coming from me.

The immediately prior message from Melody on Aug 27, "Alcor's Response 
Team and Competence" (http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=31904 - 
a response to Robert Newport's Message re. Russell Chaney) *was* 
included in the digest and received the following ratings:
Abuse  0.33 	Flamebait 5.33 	  Offtopic 0.33

Again, those who scored this message obviously do not like what she had 
to say, but will not post a public message stating clearly what and why. 
(Note that once again nothing on Kevin's "Reputation Calculation 
Algorithm" page indicates how such rating numbers are achieved.) BTW the 
"good", informative" and "interesting" ratings, now showing, are mine - 
just added today after reading the message again. (But again Kevin's 
page presents me with no information about just how this will affect 
Melody's overall "reputation" rating.)

I see this type of message scoring as an attempt to suppress (censor) 
the writer's ideas and opinions rather than engage her in reasoned 
discussion, by pointing out what the objector considers erroneous and 
why. For this rating system to be of true value, the raters need to be 
identified, by at least the identity they use to receive messages (so 
that the censors themselves can be judged and possibly censored by 
others). In the case of Melody Maxim, she does not post often (only 6 
times since 8/27 including 10/14) - not like "Phil Ossifur" who has 
inundated CryoNet at times - and much of what she has to say is worth 
considering (at the least) by those who are actual cryonicists (or just 
"cryonics-friendly" as she considers herself), and then discussed in a 
reasoned manner.

I have rarely used the message rating system but apparently in order to 
not see someone's messages excluded because numerous others don't like 
what s/he says, to the degree of rating it "flamebait" or "poor - and I 
think the messages are worthy of reading - I will need to go this route, 
unless and until Kevin institutes identification by raters, which as I 
explained above should enable these extreme raters to be themselves 
negatively preferenced in one way or another. 

Lastly, my current "reputation" (prior to publication of this message) is 
0.54 based on 15 messages to CryoNet since February 2006. (Only 7 were 
given any ratings. Surely non-rated messages should contribute to a 
poster's "reputation" as "acceptable" since they at least were not 
objectionable. However, I do not see this in Kevin's system.) One 
message, #30399 in Feb 2008, received a "flamebait" rating of 3.00 (and 
an "Interesting" of 1.00). In reading it over again, and in conjunction 
with the above observations regarding Melody's messages, it is obvious 
that some subscribers to CryoNet do not want to see *any* criticism of 
any individual or organization related to cryonics. This is the sign of 
"true believers" - "my country (cryonics organization) right or wrong" - 
not reasoned thinkers and discussants.

**Kitty Antonik Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org 
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org 
Self-sovereignty, rational pursuit of optimal lifetime happiness,
individual responsibility, social preferencing & social contracting

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=32072

----------------------------------------------------------------------

End of CryoNet Digest
*********************