CryoNet #32300 - #32304

CryoNet - Sat 9 Jan 2010

    #32300: Re: Fw: uploading and survival [David Stodolsky]
    #32301: Re: Futility of cryopreservation or chemical fixation? [David Stodolsky]
    #32302: Futility of cryopreservation or chemical fixation? [Freeposity]
    #32303: Aw: CryoNet #32294 - #32299 [robomoon]
    #32304: Futility of cryopreservation? [Jordan Sparks]

Rate This Digest: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=32300%2D32304

Administrivia

To subscribe to CryoNet, send email to:
    [email protected]
with the subject line (not message _body_):
    subscribe
To unsubscribe, use the subject line:
    unsubscribe


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message #32300
From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Fw: uploading and survival
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:21:14 +0100
References: <[email protected]>

On 8 Jan 2010, at 11:00 AM, CryoNet wrote:

> In the 1960s, "stochastic computers" were considered, where the maths
> surrounding the behaviour of random noise was used to perform  
> calculations
> using electric random noise as the computational element (instead of
> electric current in analogue computers, or electric pulses in digital
> computers).

These stochastic computers were based upon deterministic processes.  
Values were represented as probability of an 'on' state in given wire.  
This is equivalent to representing values as a voltage level in an  
analogue computer. The question is where the 'random' noise comes  
from. If it came from a deterministic pseudo-random number generator,  
then the entire system would be deterministic.

>
> This suggests that even if quantum effects occur at nerve junctions,  
> it
> doesn't mean that the system as a whole is not deterministic.

Does not follow from the above.


dss


David Stodolsky
[email protected]  Skype: davidstodolsky

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=32300

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message #32301
From: David Stodolsky <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Futility of cryopreservation or chemical fixation?
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:23:46 +0100
References: <[email protected]>

On 8 Jan 2010, at 11:00 AM, CryoNet wrote:

> I read here of purported quantum level of activity within brain  
> synapses, and fail to see how either cryopreservation or chemical  
> fixation can preserve that.

The question is not about preserving quantum level activity, but  
whether quantum level activity is necessary for brain function.

>
> I even fail to see how the electrical activity in the brain could be  
> preserved by either freezing it after it has ceased such activity,  
> or taking a snapshot of it similarly afterwards.  I may be mistaken  
> but in the back of my head is something about such ongoing  
> electrical activity being what preserves "memories" and such, as  
> long as they exist.

This is only relevant for memories that have not been consolidated,  
which takes about 20 minutes. After that the memories are represented  
by changes in the junctions, that is, a physical change.


dss


David Stodolsky
[email protected]  Skype: davidstodolsky

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=32301

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message #32302
References: <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 09:49:23 -0600
Subject: Futility of cryopreservation or chemical fixation?
From: Freeposity <[email protected]>

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 00:37:34 -0500
From: [email protected]

 I read here of purported quantum level of activity within brain
synapses, and fail to see how either cryopreservation or chemical
fixation can preserve that.

I even fail to see how the electrical activity in the brain could be
preserved by either freezing it after it has ceased such activity, or
taking a snapshot of it similarly afterwards.  I may be mistaken but
in the back of my head is something about such ongoing electrical
activity being what preserves "memories" and such, as long as they
exist.

So I wonder what is the point.  Would professing a belief in "God" be
indicated here?  LOL

________________________________________________________________

Memories and thought processes are stored not in electrical activity
but by the structure of the brain itself.


Many people have been "dead" by hypothermia and survived to tell about
it. It has been proven time and again that all electrical activity in
the brain can stop and as long as there's no permanent damage to the
cellular structures of the brain you can revive the person.

About a decade ago there was a woman who was found to have a
previously inoperable brain aneurysm. Cutting into or near it would
cause it to rupture and it was likely to rupture on its own. Her
doctors came up with a plan to induce hypothermia and drain her of
blood in order to operate on her brain. She was clinically dead for
hours during the operation. No electrical activity, no heartbeat,
nothing. She survived the surgery and had no ill effects from it.


I hope this helps.

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=32302

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message #32303
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 20:46:17 +0100 (CET)
From: [email protected]
Subject: Aw: CryoNet #32294 - #32299
References: <[email protected]>

For the majority of cryonicists, uploading must be certainly no alternative of superior or equivalent value in most cases. But there are a few cases where mental and social imbalances make it unaffordable or insufferable for those concerned to finance cryonics. Only a few cryonicists belong to those who are affected by a generally notable form of mental illness or social oppression which includes the risk of homelessness in various regions. Taking this into consideration, we must learn about the difference between a better alternative of superior value and a makeshift alternative of inferior value. The inferior value of cryonics perceived by the entire global population is shifting to a superior value for a comparatively small group of cryonicists who find it affordable or sufferable enoug
 h to sign up for cryonic suspension. However, not all cryonicists can overcome mental and social imbalances to shift through.

Mind uploading offers the uploading of an individual's self which is reparable to a former state of living. It requires the preservation of the brain including it's cellular structure where living species of higher mammals consider their self. Without the preservation of the brain, uploading has little value for repair of self and mind towards a former state of living. But such a case renders some superior value for various data about a self which are not living, but still bound to personal action. This way, repair and consolidation with AI of self and mind will be directed away from a former state of death.

For a cryopreserved brain we think, some internal parts of personality are stored in the front left lobe. Yet, brains aren't directly living within cryonic suspension. Neither a curriculum vitae nor a personal data sheet are living, but they are viable statements about important parts of personality too. Therefore, uploading of such data into a digital creature in cyberspace still has value for the repercussion of some external parts from the self which should be considerably useful data. Yet, it's value is still low to the majority of successful cryonicists. But for the rest, uploading without preserved brain tissue represents the better alternative to a classic death which usually goes along without any viable preservation of external personality-related information for uploading.

Incl. subject: Re: Uploading and Survival
Luke Parrish writes in part:
> 
> 
> But one thing I haven't seen mentioned here is that uploading as an
> alternative
> to cryonics is really a red herring. Cryonics preserves the individual for
> either
> reanimation *or* uploading -- or anything in between, for that matter --
> which 
> may become possible in the future. There is no competition between cryonics
> and uploading, only between reanimation and simulation. If you are not
> cryopreserved, you can't be uploaded after you die, because we do not have
> the
> technology to create a sufficiently detailed digital scan at present.

///



Schluss mit teuer - her mit den Schnappchen!
Jetzt alle Discounter-Angebote von Aldi uber Douglas bis Schlecker ubersichtlich fur Sie geordnet - jetzt klicken und sparen!
http://www.arcor.de/rd/footer.discounto

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=32303

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message #32304
From: "Jordan Sparks" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Futility of cryopreservation?
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 09:58:55 -0800

No, electrical activity is definitely not needed.  This is well accepted
neuroscience.

"We know that secondary memory does not depend on continued activity of the
nervous system, because the brain can be totally inactivated by cooling, by
general anesthesia, by hypoxia, by ischemia, or by any method, and yet
secondary memories that have been previously stored are still retained when
the brain becomes active once again. Therefore, secondary memory must result
from some actual alterations of the synapses, either physical or chemical."
- Page 658, Textbook of Medical Physiology by Arthur C. Guyton (W.B.
Saunders Company, Philadelphia, 1986).

So you are mistaken.  This is THE most basic principle supporting the
science of cryonics, that the information in the mind is stored in the
physical arrangement of the neurons.

Jordan Sparks

-----Original Message-----

Message #32298
Subject: Futility of cryopreservation or chemical fixation?
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 00:37:34 -0500
From: [email protected]

I even fail to see how the electrical activity in the brain could be
preserved by either freezing it after it has ceased such activity, or taking
a snapshot of it similarly afterwards.  I may be mistaken but in the back of
my head is something about such ongoing electrical activity being what
preserves "memories" and such, as long as they exist.

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=32304

----------------------------------------------------------------------

End of CryoNet Digest
*********************